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Old 15-11-2012, 21:51   #46
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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This is why I posted an owner can be invaluable if they are willing to help during the sea trials. It is one thing to say "don't trust what the owner says about how great the boat is" and in some cases that may be good advice. On the other hand if you can trust what the owner says you miles ahead of the game.
Having sold a few boats in my time, let me add that it's to the new owner's advantage to maintain the good graces of the previous owner.

I've had new owners contact me some time after the sale is finalized to ask questions about systems and upgrades. While I'm generally inclined to be responsive to such queries, in the one occasion where the new owner was a jerk during sea trials and surveys I instructed him not to contact me in the future.

If a fellow cruiser can't find where I've installed the breaker to the washdown pump, I'm more than happy to help unless he was an absolute ass during the purchase process.
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Old 15-11-2012, 22:32   #47
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

Uhh all great advice but my dad taught me to start with simple stuff - like are your feet wet? (=fail), expand from there....
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Old 15-11-2012, 23:14   #48
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

This destructive testing bit has become a bit of a red herring, so let’s all agree that will never happen and is stupid!

Perhaps the famous Florida Broker’s Mafia has all you guys intimidated, but a serious buyer who has signed a purchase Agreement and put at least 10% down as a deposit, has certain rights, which should be insisted upon.

Agree it is a function of size and value, but if I were spending USD$300k-500k on a used cruising yacht, I would take my time to inspect and not be intimidated by a crusty Owner or lazy Broker. Otherwise I would just walk away!

Did that when buying my own and my neighbor who just sold his 53ft Joe Adams last week, had the buyer fly in, spending about 5 days inspecting and satisfying himself, before sea trials and acceptance. (The Broker gets paid to be there when needed and to make the deal!).. I also heard the Trials were very thorough and the well found boat passed with flying colors.

You can still do this and remain friends with the seller, by buying him dinner and discussing your areas of concern, but selling the idea that a deposited buyer has limited opportunity to verify his purchase, would only be believed by a novice buyer.
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Old 16-11-2012, 07:58   #49
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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Having sold a few boats in my time, let me add that it's to the new owner's advantage to maintain the good graces of the previous owner.

I've had new owners contact me some time after the sale is finalized to ask questions about systems and upgrades. While I'm generally inclined to be responsive to such queries, in the one occasion where the new owner was a jerk during sea trials and surveys I instructed him not to contact me in the future.

If a fellow cruiser can't find where I've installed the breaker to the washdown pump, I'm more than happy to help unless he was an absolute ass during the purchase process.
Agree with this. As soon as most folks get even a stock production boat the first thing they do is add something, remove something, change something or do something to make the boat better fit their needs.

Lots of things like warranty on the new inverter just installed on the boat I am buying were made known to me. Without putting real numbers on it I would venture to say after cruising on a boat for a couple of weeks you will find out lots of things you did not expect and the PO may well have simple answers to questions because he had to deal with the same issue.

It is well worth while to have good relations with the PO.
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Old 16-11-2012, 16:45   #50
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

With Tomfl's post #45 & 49 I can certainly agree. In some circumstances the used boat owner is available and if you can show interest and deference, most likely the owner will "open up" and spend considerable time talking about the boat, its history and how things operate on it. But if you come across to the owner as a pushy know-it-all "smart ass" sort of person you will get minimal, if any information about the boat beyond what is published in the listing.

However, there are many times when the owner is not available mainly because he/she is no longer interested in the boat which is probably why it is up for sale. Or the owner is deceased in which case only a good seance medium would be helpful. In many cases only the broker or the broker's rep will be available to show the boat and generally they know less than you do about that type make/model boat.

As to Pelagic's "Perhaps the famous Florida Broker’s Mafia has all you guys intimidated, but a serious buyer who has signed a purchase Agreement and put at least 10% down as a deposit, has certain rights, which should be insisted upon."

- The only "right" the buyer has is really to get his deposit back providing he has not violated any terms of the sales agreement. The buyer has by signing the sales agreement and put down the deposit - gotten the privilege to have a surveyor look over the boat and to ride along on a sea trial. It is the surveyor who is the key to the buyer's success in evaluating the boat and finding problems or potential problems. And finding a good surveyor with a keen eye and knowledge of the type boat/make/model is sometimes not very easy especially if the buyer is from a distant location from the boat. In Florida, at least, there is no legal requirement for the seller to disclose anything about the boat or its history unless the seller desires to disclose such information. This is why the "as is" and "verbal statements disclaimer" are a standard part of the used boat sales agreement.
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Old 17-11-2012, 17:47   #51
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

I don’t think any of us are in disagreement about the value of maintaining positive relationships and respecting Ownership. This is after all supposed to be fun!

Perhaps it would be useful to qualify the meaning of “Subject to Inspection, Survey and Sea Trials” in a Sales Agreement.

Does that mean to some, that my request that the yacht does a Figure 8 in reverse, is outside the scope of Buyer’s rights?
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Old 17-11-2012, 17:59   #52
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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I don’t think any of us are in disagreement about the value of maintaining positive relationships and respecting Ownership. This is after all supposed to be fun!

Perhaps it would be useful to qualify the meaning of “Subject to Inspection, Survey and Sea Trials” in a Sales Agreement.

Does that mean to some, that my request that the yacht does a Figure 8 in reverse, is outside the scope of Buyer’s rights?
I would say it depends on how you approach the request...

If you simply asked nicely," hey __________ do you mind doing a figure 8 in reverse?"......I think that is reasonable. I also think it is reasonable for someone to answer, "sorry, I don't think that is necessary."

It's all in how you approach someone, and how you take their answer when it is no.

James L

BTW, I understand why you do, and I think it's a great idea.
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Old 17-11-2012, 18:46   #53
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

I agree, if they declined that request and a few others, similar in nature, I would keep it nice and friendly.

However, once back at the dock I would inform broker that the vessel has not met my expectations during sea trials, and get my deposit back (less expenses).

There is no need to elaborate!
Do we agree that I am within my rights?
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Old 17-11-2012, 18:58   #54
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

Sure.
But I view the sea trial as the final hurdle, one which is unlikely to make or break the deal. Most of your research is done before you put down a deposit. And what you really need to decide before going ahead is what will need to be replaced when. Ask your surveyor to note these things. And there will be things for sure. Look out for those that need attention in the short term that will lead to serious costs - soft decks, leaking fuel tanks, poor electrical wiring, failing exhaust system etc

The sea trial is just the last box to tick.
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Old 17-11-2012, 19:10   #55
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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I agree, if they declined that request and a few others, similar in nature, I would keep it nice and friendly.

However, once back at the dock I would inform broker that the vessel has not met my expectations during sea trials, and get my deposit back (less expenses).

There is no need to elaborate!
Do we agree that I am within my rights?
I agree. If the owner doesn't want to perform a simple request, I would think the sea-trial was not completed to my requirements. I feel a figure 8 in reverse is a simple request.

James L
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Old 17-11-2012, 19:13   #56
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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Sure.
But I view the sea trial as the final hurdle, one which is unlikely to make or break the deal. Most of your research is done before you put down a deposit. And what you really need to decide before going ahead is what will need to be replaced when. Ask your surveyor to note these things. And there will be things for sure. Look out for those that need attention in the short term that will lead to serious costs - soft decks, leaking fuel tanks, poor electrical wiring, failing exhaust system etc

The sea trial is just the last box to tick.
A sea trial, can give you a lot of information if you really pay attention. There are loads of things which can be "illuminated" if you are observant.

There are many things about motoring, running rigging, standing rigging and such which can show problems with a sea trial. Things you may not see at dock or on the hard.

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Old 17-11-2012, 19:21   #57
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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I agree. If the owner doesn't want to perform a simple request, I would think the sea-trial was NOT completed to my requirements. I feel a figure 8 in reverse is a simple request.

James L
did you mean.. was not?
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Old 17-11-2012, 19:25   #58
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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did you mean.. was not?
Yeah....had to edit that. My fingers got behind the brain......it happens.

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Old 17-11-2012, 19:39   #59
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

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Sure.
But I view the sea trial as the final hurdle, one which is unlikely to make or break the deal. Most of your research is done before you put down a deposit. And what you really need to decide before going ahead is what will need to be replaced when. Ask your surveyor to note these things. And there will be things for sure. Look out for those that need attention in the short term that will lead to serious costs - soft decks, leaking fuel tanks, poor electrical wiring, failing exhaust system etc

The sea trial is just the last box to tick.
Hi Insequent,
Sometimes if the boat is far away overseas, you need to put a holding deposit down after initial research, to give you the opportunity to conclude the purchase.

While I agree that all the checks and tests you mention are very important, the sea trials are equally so and should be managed with same attention to detail.

These are the dynamic tests that identify misalignments, bent shafts, leaking seals, rudder play, clogged or inadequate plumbing etc….Little things like …Will the toilets flush underway?... to name just a few.

Also, I am still wondering how Insequent (or his Surveyor) can make his inspection checks without touching the boat, as some imply.

For me, the last tick in the box is agreeing on a final price and inventory after you have decided to buy.
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Old 17-11-2012, 20:12   #60
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Re: Useful Sea-Trial Tips and Tests

1. do your research
2. inspect shortlisted boats. No deposit required at this point. I would never pay a deposit for something that I had not been on board. Airfares are cheap. And you can take your time, look at lots of stuff but I agree that its unlikely to include the dynamic tests noted above
3. offer price - if accepted you pay the deposit o enable surveyor to poke and prod within reason and then sea trial.

If you intend reducing the offer price after survey you would best flag that in your offer (eg subject to price adjustment for any significant repairs found to be required after survey and sea trial) in addition to noting inventory or inventory exclusions

Otherwise you will have paid for haul out and survey, and the owner might decline any price adjustments. Leaving you to wear the costs incurred and no boat, or paying the full offer price. If you do include the 'subject to...' in the offer then the owner is tacitly acknowledging that the offered price isn't final.
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