Unseen - a Survey - a Visit - No Broker!

[Capt Phil]

One of the main reasons for the established order of viewing, survey, engine analysis, sea trial is that when you look over a boat carefully, there may be some suspicious areas that you notice but are not compenent to pass judgement on. You would ask your surveyor to pay particular attention to them, ie., the sound of a wooden hull might emit a different sound when you tap on a particular section but unless you know what to look for, it might mean nothing or could be signs of rot; a lag between when you throw an electrical switch and when a unit is activated could be caused by any one of a number of things, etc, etc. This gives the surveyor areas of focus that he/she otherwise does not have.
An engine review by a qualified mechanic separate from the surveyor report is a good idea as is an oil analysis which can be conducted simultaneously with the survey or engine review.
There is no need for a broker to be involved as long as you have title and lien searches performed by competent individuals. I'm unsure if there is a Central Registry in the UK for boats similar to the USCG Documentation service or State Registration in most US States. In Canada, I believe there are Provincial Central Registry's for vessels. Some one with experience in the UK could answer that one. Msponer's suggestion is a good one, I believe.
As far as tax issues go... talk to someone professional in that regard.
Good luck with your search and possible purchase... Phil

[MarkJ]

Hi,

You absolutly must see the boat before you pay one cent of deposit.

Absolutly.

Fine without a broker. But not sight unseen.

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Hi,

You absolutly must see the boat before you pay one cent of deposit.

Absolutly.

Fine without a broker. But not sight unseen.

No request or offer of any deposit has been spoken of though I can say that I would most definitely not part with a single cent (or penny in this case ) until I was completely satisfied and 100% sure she was right to buy.

[settlednomad]

The boat I am interested in was built in the US in 1984, has been to the UK, is tax exempt from Europe and part III SSR registered in the UK....... so why or how can it be all that without a CE mark, am I missing something? I have now read further into the CE mark issue and feel this could now be a show-stopper. I am not sure yet for how long we would travel but, I am sure that eventually my girlfriend and I would want to return to either France or the UK. Without this CE mark the boat seemingly would not be allowed into the waters. A BIG problem!! Maybe back to the drawing board...

Oh how an 8 hour day can change your dream in the most drastic of ways, still going to get a boat and set sail though

What a fantastic forum. A sincere thank you to all who have contributed with the experience and insight that I clearly lack.

[zeehag]

good luck.
not seeing boat your self is buying a pig in a poke.
good luck.
surveyor's function, as they , good ones will, anyway, will tell you, is to merely check a boat out for a potential investor be it bank or insurance or both.

[boatman61]

Hi.. depending on the age and builder of the boat it may.. or may not have a CE mark... if its an American Beneteau built after a certain year it will have it... however if another US model built for the home market it may well not have one... this is no deal breaker if you have no plans to turn her around fast to make a buck... its only a problem when the time comes to sell her in Europe.
As for the survey.. if she's in the BVI's... fly someone in from Granada.. or where ever... or vice versa... don't use local.. its a small place and clickey... if you get my drift... maybe a French guy from St Martin or Martinique... sympatico helps...
When I bought a boat out there I used a broker for one simple reason... it was French registered and I needed someone who could handle the de-registration back in France.
One point I don't understand is... if she's US built... how come she's VAT exempt... year of build (applicable to EU boats) don't matter... if its never visited the EU.. she's an import.. if she has been to the EU and is registered SSR..
1/ Make sure you get the VAT receipt.. or the exemption certificate...
2/ Find out how long she has been back out of the EU... if memory serves me well... and they have not changed the rules.. again if she's been outside more than 2yrs in succession she becomes liable for VAT once again
Good luck with your boat purchase
Edit... just read your last post... if she's been cleared in the UK as is and VAT paid your good to go with an '84 in IMO... else everyone in the EU with a boat pre-whatever would be in deep Poo trying to upgrade their boats to meet the relatively new CE mandate..

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Edit... just read your last post... if she's been cleared in the UK as is and VAT paid your good to go with an '84 in IMO... else everyone in the EU with a boat pre-whatever would be in deep Poo trying to upgrade their boats to meet the relatively new CE mandate..[/SIZE][/FONT]

Hi, after further communication with the owner, he has said he has a VAT paid certificate as the boat was in the UK between 1996-2000. She has since, as I understand it, been back in the Caribbean. It would seem that CE marking for yachts came into play after 2006.

She had her hull built in Florida and was then finished off in Rhode Island.

I do not intend turning her around for a quick buck. I would like to keep her though not sure I can even do that in European waters with these new laws... It's a minefield out there!

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by LBH49520

I would most definitely not part with a single cent (or penny in this case ) until I was completely satisfied and 100% sure she was right to buy.

That doesnt actually say that you would see the boat before you buy it.

I have had many discussions with people lamenting their foolishness in buying aboat unseen. I have never had a discussion with a person who is happy they bought a boat unseen.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by LBH49520

Hi, after further communication with the owner, he has said he has a VAT paid certificate as the boat was in the UK between 1996-2000. She has since, as I understand it, been back in the Caribbean. It would seem that CE marking for yachts came into play after 2006.

She had her hull built in Florida and was then finished off in Rhode Island.

I do not intend turning her around for a quick buck. I would like to keep her though not sure I can even do that in European waters with these new laws... It's a minefield out there!

Don't know about the rest of the EU but CE came in on Aug 1st 2005... how do I know... I missed the 'Get out of Jail Free' by one day in my Hunter 37..
You should be all right where the CE is concerned... the VAT will however be applicable on the price on the Bill of Sale you receive on purchase...
Horta in the Azores (Atlantic Yacht Services) would be the place to sort that out.. it was 15%... don't know if its gone up since '08... but a quick Google will give you a list of rates in the various countries.. 2008 it cost just under £4000 for a 2001 Beneteau 331 that cost US$65K .

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

That doesnt actually say that you would see the boat before you buy it.

Sorry, this may have been answered or explained on a previous post. The only thing that is happening unseen is the survey. I feel I have seen enough (photos etc), read enough and discussed enough with the owner to take a punt on a survey and make sure she is seaworthy. I will then go and visit the boat, ensure she is right for me and then discuss buying it with the owner. No deposit has been paid or will be paid prior to me seeing the boat. There is a bit of faith from both parties I guess. If it all goes wrong and I lose £700 for a survey then so be it. I would have spent £1,400 on flights alone just to see it in the first place and then the cost of a survey anyway. There really is no perfect answer to this situation. I'm just trying to do it the best way I can with what's available.

[Paul L]

I can't see paying for a full survey on a boat that you do not have under contract. To put it under contract you have to agree on a price and put a deposit down. If you don' t you can deal with this for months and then have the seller sell it to someone else at the last minute, leaving you with a survey and some used plane tickets. Agreeing on a contract and price is not buying sight unseen. You will still renegotiate based on the survey and the buyers inspection.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by LBH49520

Already my naivety is being tested - I don't even know what this is...eeeeekkkk!!!

I have not had access to much paperwork but have been told she is TAX exempt for Europe. The boat is British registered and owned by a British couple.

A money exchange will probably take the form of a direct bank transfer (both having British accounts) though having an official contract drawn up would be a good idea. Thank you for this.

There are a lot of issues here. CE marking or lack thereof will mean you can't sell the boat in europe.

Why not save yourself a lot of grief? Find a local broker and explain the situation. Ask him what he will charge to lead you through the paperwork, legal hassles etc?

Sure that will cost you a fewbucks, but you'll have someone leading you who knows the ropes. Tell the seller that you intend to deduct the brokers fee from the purchase price. Or go halves with him on.

Right now, it is a buyers market. The seller will be flexible. If he isn't tell him to take a hike and find another boat to buy

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I can't see paying for a full survey on a boat that you do not have under contract. To put it under contract you have to agree on a price and put a deposit down. If you don' t you can deal with this for months and then have the seller sell it to someone else at the last minute, leaving you with a survey and some used plane tickets. Agreeing on a contract and price is not buying sight unseen. You will still renegotiate based on the survey and the buyers inspection.

Paul, I completely see your point. The survey is scheduled for 11 days from today. I will put in an offer based on the result of the survey and before I commit to flying over there. In essence we have already discussed a price though obviously this isn't contractually binding. Unfortunately this will drag on until September (when I fly out there) due to my work commitments. As previously mentioned this is not the most straight-forward of buying situations!!

[settlednomad]

Originally Posted by boatman61

You should be all right where the CE is concerned...

Great news...

Originally Posted by boatman61

VAT will however be applicable on the price on the Bill of Sale you receive on purchase...

Not so great news...

I (the owner) is waiting for advice to come back from the RYA ref. CE marking.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by LBH49520

Paul, I completely see your point. The survey is scheduled for 11 days from today. I will put in an offer based on the result of the survey and before I commit to flying over there. In essence we have already discussed a price though obviously this isn't contractually binding. Unfortunately this will drag on until September (when I fly out there) due to my work commitments. As previously mentioned this is not the most straight-forward of buying situations!!

Without a contract you have no way to avoid the seller starting to deal with another buyer and playing you off with them. The contract and down payment protects both of you. As already mentioned by others, paying a surveyor for a quick look to see if the boat is as represented, then making an offer subject to survey, buyers inspection and seatrial could save you lot of money and time.