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Old 14-02-2008, 15:07   #16
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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Did you mean to say, "...1/4 the strength"?
If so, I'll take that as an insult.
So, Gordo, I suggest you pay full price at West Marine so you KNOW you're paying the most and thus, getting the best.
Dave
Thanks for picking up my error - yes, I meant to infer that cost is most often commensurate with value (1/4 cost = 1/4 strength).

Having taken offense, may I assume that you are (in some manner) instrumental in producing, or marketing, inferior products, such as those sold in hardware stores (such as Home Depot)?

I'll stand by the implications of my earlier post; that hardware of unknown provenance and specifications, has unknown (but suspect) value.
Given that shackles are not high cost items, I couldn't possibly recommend saving a few dollars (save $5-10/ea) on hardware store "crapola".
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Old 14-02-2008, 15:34   #17
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Ditto Gordan, I couldn't agree more. There are places to make legitimate savings that are "smart". A shackle that is used for something like let say a "key chain" any old junk will do. Any component that is required to handle a specific load needs to be rated and certified for at least for the load it is intended to carry, if not heavier than the expected loads. The reasons these type of fittings cost more is the testing involved to attain their load rated certifications.
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Old 14-02-2008, 15:39   #18
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At about perhaps (we've no way to know for certain) the strength.

Gordonís right there is a lot of commodity product out there however the MWL & BL are very suspect.
Would you risk it for the extra $10 that you pay for a tested marine shackle?
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Old 14-02-2008, 15:56   #19
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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Did you mean to say, "...1/4 the strength"?

If so, I'll take that as an insult.

So, Gordo, I suggest you pay full price at West Marine so you KNOW you're paying the most and thus, getting the best.

Dave
It's a fact that Stainless specification varies widely. I won't scrimp on rigging.

I will buy non-marine stuff for just about anything in the interior including our fridge, dvd players, replacement stove, hot pot, etc.

I also buy all my general use lines at wallmart. Nylon docklines, poly rope for springlines and general usage.

The internet is your friend. I just saved over 100 bucks for engine consumables by buying on-line vs. buying at a distributor.
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Old 14-02-2008, 17:16   #20
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2 recent items:

Needed a starter for one of my Volvo MD22Ls. Took the old one to a local auto electric place that specializes in starters and alternators. They found the exact same one for about 1/3 of the cost that Volvo wanted - just without the green paint. Shipped to my home address in about three days.

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The internet is your friend. I just saved over 100 bucks for engine consumables by buying on-line vs. buying at a distributor.
and small time, local dealers like my self thank you from the bottom of our hearts
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Old 14-02-2008, 17:54   #21
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No offense NM but I was quoted over 40 bucks for a v-belt from the local distributor. I paid 17 bucks on-line. I was quoted 30 bucks for a zinc from the local distributor. I paid 15.

I believe in geniuine OEM parts so while I could have got a "matching" v-belt for 8 bucks at Napa, I paid 17 for one that probably was made at the same factory but came in a Volvo box...

I appreciate small shops and that inventory is expensive. But stocking inventory isn't a real smart game, IMO. It's getting it to the customer in 1-2 days. That's what the internet does for both you and me. What I won't do is wait 5 days and pay a premium through a distributor for something I can get in 2 days at 1/3 the price.
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Old 14-02-2008, 18:07   #22
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Having taken offense, may I assume that you are (in some manner) instrumental in producing, or marketing, inferior products, such as those sold in hardware stores (such as Home Depot)?
Sheese, Gordo - exactly which shackles was I referring to and how do you know they're inferior? Let me answer for you > you don't. Indeed, these are not 17-4PH shackles. For the uses I have in mind they are WAY more suited than spending 4X as much elsewhere.

Everything hardware stores sell is inferior?

Never mind. If you believe the highest cost always equates to the highest quality that is your preogative. At least your supporting the economy.

Dave
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Old 14-02-2008, 20:40   #23
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2Hulls,

I wouldn't let my boat ride at anchor with a home depot shackle. Now, cut one into a hasp and weld it onto a barn door for a padlock... sure! A cut off wheel flies through them like butter, way easier than a piece of cold roll the same size...

Costco and Sams have great prices on motor oil, particularly Rotella T by the case. Though on my boat and others it takes two funnels, one to fill up a quart bottle, and another for the engine!

Track down where the commercial boats go for repairs and parts. You'll know it when you smell it... cigarette smoke, cosmoline and rubber. They'll have the best prices on rope and chain, as well as filters, impellers, cutlass bearings... etc. Sadly they don't stock much for small engines, or at least it won't be be in stock. Some of them prefer to get a faxed order, but they all like a big list paid in cash!

Same places have 12 packs of the blue shop towels for less than the parts stores. Speaking of parts stores, a lot of parts places will haggle... NAPA in particular is pretty good about giving a better price if you ask for it... a little expensive, but they generally have one either in the back, or get it by the afternoon.

NAPA is also a place that has shrinking connectors and the boat grade electrical stuff, often in stock. Ask for bulk pricing. A LOT cheaper than West even on port supply... though I haven't priced boat cable. NAPA's brand of specialty tools generally are shop quality, not fancy and not chromed... but hold a lot of them up beside a craftsman and they are stamped and packaged differently, but the same tool.

Around here... Advance auto runs cheaper than a lot of the mail order guys that I buy from on a lot of car parts... and have a hidden marine book that is paper only. Not half bad for tracking down strange and obscure parts... but its better to do that legwork well before you need them! They don't stock it, but can have it next day.

EBAY and thrift stores are good places to buy tools. Sears (Craftsman) has a life time warranty, find one of what you want even if its in pieces. Leatherman have 25 year warranties that work the same way.

You can make paper gaskets on machined parts with a ballpeen hammer. If the edge isn't chamfered, lay the paper over and start tapping lightly around the edges. About ten minutes and you'll have a paper gasket. Some tight contours need a razorblade, but the ball peen does a better job. Cost = Time + A manilla envelope.

Parts stores stock various types of gasket material, though its a little tricky to deal with as a gasket cut by hand doesn't have square sides... a little dab of sealer will do the trick. I like permetex #2 as a lot of times its easier to clean up than a gasket without...

Speaking of sealers, buy the biggest tube of Anti-seize, Dielectric grease, loctite, and anything else you use a little dab of for regular servicing. For double the cost, instead of getting enough to do the job once... you get 10 years worth. Read the weight on a lot of those tubes, less than an ounce... a 6 ounce tub is cheap if you can find room for it! Fastener supply houses are the place to go... Half the cost of automotive places, a lot of them blend over to electrical.

In a pinch 3M weather stripping adhesive (Gorilla Snot) works on home made gaskets, its a bummer to clean up... but is some of the most tenacious stuff on planet earth.

If you need a gigantic U-Bolt made, find a place that services big rigs. They bend up the ones that hold beds to trailer frames! Most have mild steel on hand you may have to bring them the stainless if thats what you want.

Belts are best bought through belt suppliers. It takes some digging to find these guys, as they often do a lot of other things... ask a hydraulic shop where they are, they'll probably tell you they do them too. If you can't find a hydraulic shop ask the truck guys, or a sheet metal fab shop. You'll either need the belt you are replacing, or know the length and size. Once you have those two it'll cross with everything form ones made of cheese, to industrial drive belts that have more kevlar than a bullet proof vest. (Personally I like gates belts.)

Just remember that with most of the places above, your dealing with guys whose customers are more often than not... getting paid to stand in line. Be polite and shoot the breeze and they'll help you out on pricing and parts selection! The best thing you can do to save money is to spend an afternoon driving through the industrial areas looking for "OPEN" signs and asking what they and their neighbors do.
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Old 15-02-2008, 03:14   #24
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Sheese, Gordo - exactly which shackles was I referring to and how do you know they're inferior? Let me answer for you > you don't... ... If you believe the highest cost always equates to the highest quality that is your preogative. At least your supporting the economy.
Dave
Pardon my presumption, but absent your specification, I’m forced to make certain assumptions about your intended meanings. I certainly didn’t expect you to be speaking about halyard snap-shackles (17-4PH); but the common Bow or D shackle (as “available in the rope section of Home Depot”), which might be used with an anchor rode.

Whilst I don’t think you always get what you pay for, I’m equally certain that you seldom get more than what you pay for.
So, I’ll agree that paying more doesn’t guarantee higher quality.
Notwithstanding, paying substantially less, from a mass market consumer retailer, will nearly certainly guarantee lower quality.

Since a high-quality anchor shackle can be purchased for under $10 (3/8"), the potential cost savings at your local hardware (or big box) store is insignificant, compared to the risk potential of using hardware of unknown provenance and quality.

Superior wine is made from superior grapes, which cost more. My pallet is insufficiently cultured to differentiate between some cheaper inferior wines, and their more prestigious and expensive brethren. Since I drink wine, primarily for the aesthetic appeal, I can “afford” to indulge in some of the cheaper brands. There is no consequential down-side to “cheaping out” on my personal wine selection; but I do (usually) serve “better” wines to (certain) guests.
Likewise, I purchase slide-lock zipper “baggies” at my local “Dollar Store”.
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Old 15-02-2008, 04:44   #25
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My 1st hand experience(after which I will stick with known brands for SS):

I bought a whole lot of snap shackles from a cheap importer and used it for MPS control sheats and in some other areas of the boat. In 6 months they had surface rust and if I dont oil them I can see they wont last long.

When I bought them they looked the part but no brandname, they cost less than 1/2 Ronstan say. Other shackles on boat have been there for over 10 years and show no sign of rust at all.
I have seen pushpit upright screwd down by SS screws where these screws are rusting within a year but the upright is ok.
Ok so one might argue that the strength is fine though, well rust showing and running down gelcoat is not good look, besides the part will loose strength as it rusts further.
Sorry but only sure way to get good SS is to buy well known marine brands, which may be sourced cheaper through 2nd hand stores, online, ebay etc.
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Old 15-02-2008, 06:34   #26
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I propose a truce!

What I should have included in my initial post about the shackles was something like, "In the proper application, these things should do just fine." This is what I was thinking, I just didn't say it. Suffice to say I am NOT using them as the potential weak link for anything on my boat.

As for my cheaper Volvo starter - it's EXACTLY the same as OEM minus the green paint. All Volvo does is give them their part number and paint them. That's some expensive paint.

Peace.

Dave
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Old 15-02-2008, 06:42   #27
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The previous owner of my boat stocked up on spares for a cruise and was given (for free) an exact replica Vetus starter motor in PMO from a heavy machinery breakers yard. Pays to look around. . . .
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Old 15-02-2008, 06:47   #28
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As for my cheaper Volvo starter - it's EXACTLY the same as OEM minus the green paint. All Volvo does is give them their part number and paint them. That's some expensive paint.

Peace.

Dave
not exactly. Volvo also adds their parts warranty and the LOCAL DEALER adds there availability to you for technical assistance.
What would happen if everyone stopped buying parts and service from the local dealer? or bought everything off of the internet mail order. The only "dealer" who would win. Is the one with the biggest cash reserve and can afford to sell parts at minimal maringins for a longer time. This then results in a smaller network of dealers and techs as the market thins. Granted there are few quality dealers out there. So why wouldn't you support them?

to expand on my comment;
When the market place shrinks. A few things happen. THe quality of the product drops due to demand for a lower price. Or the price rises as there becomes fewer places to buy the product.
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Old 15-02-2008, 08:03   #29
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Old 15-02-2008, 08:13   #30
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I'm with Gord May on this one - this is what happens when you use cheap stainless shackles. This one is 3 weeks old. I got rid of all my stainless shackles and only use the best galvanized ones I can get.

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