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Old 19-04-2012, 19:54   #46
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

sounds gross... but true! CP
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Old 19-04-2012, 21:08   #47
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

I can probably understand why the OP does not want to identify the exact details of the vessel that he is in the process of purchasing because of the very real chance that the current owner is a CF member so he would be letting the cat out of the bag as the saying goes.

I agree with a lot of others in that I am not at all surprised that the owner accepted your offer of $95K on a vessel that was on the market for $99K - I bet he jumped right on it in the current market. Do you know how long the vessel had been on the market for? The longer it has been on the market the better your bargaining point would have been due to the ongoing monthly costs for the owner in keeping the vessel & this is not even considering the faults detected.

I would definitely not even consider a similar vessel on the market for $25K more at this stage. I also agree that the faulty nav lights could be an indication of greater electrical problems and seem to indicate a general neglect of the vessel recently and it does not sound like it has any sort of detailing to fix items like these to make it more attractive to the marketplace.

If you are still keen on this boat then you need to get quotes for the work to fix the faults identified and you need to revise your offer accordingly.
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Old 20-04-2012, 03:03   #48
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

If you really want to sell a boat you need to look at the market, be realistic and price your boat at 5% above your bottom sale price +Broker fee. Many brokers will tell you they can get you top dollar on an exclusive sale which is normally 3 months. Then 2 months in will get you to drop the price closer to what it should have been in the first place. But now you have poisoned the boat because as we all know buyers watch boats what was 120K drops to 100k, bells ring and they wait for the next drop. By going into the market with the best boat at the best price you will get a sale.
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Old 20-04-2012, 03:29   #49
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astral Blue View Post
To the original poster:

Please be very careful in heeding the advice to cut the offer significantly. Like someone said earlier, it will most likely be a lose-lose situation; and you will end up without a boat and back to step one in the process. The only person winning is the surveyor because he/she got paid..
I would say that was a win-win situation!

If the Vendor drops the price to cover the (new) bills then it's a Win.

If the Vendor doesn't drop the price (and you don't buy) it's also a Win....as you've saved yourself a large chunk of money (that was not anticipated when you made your original offer), maybe $25k? maybe more .....and it's only cost "you" a survey / haulout fee. Sometimes throwing good money after bad is not a good idea.
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Old 20-04-2012, 09:37   #50
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

SimonV... +1... sounds like you've been there! Capt Phil
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Old 20-04-2012, 09:49   #51
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Thanks for all the great feedback. Sorry for being intentionally obtuse in the original post. I wasn't looking for specific "what's the value of this specific boat" info since that would still be highly speculative. It is a very well-built "bluewater" cruiser from the '80s.

But, you all really helped give me a lot to think about regarding walking away or not. Where we are now is that at the end of the day, there are a lot of great bluewater boats in the 90-120k price range that we are shopping in. So, if this one falls through, we have several others that we are keen on and will consider the survey costs tuition.

I do have a question about the wet decks (around a few of the deck hardware areas). The surveyor (a very experienced dude who used to build boats and is also a yacht designer) said he was confident the wet decks did NOT have rot because there would be telltale grey-brown streaks in the cabin. He said that by rebedding the hardware and stopping new water eventually it would dry out because GRP and gelcoat is fundamentally porous.

My last boat (another 30 year old) didn't have wet decks and is totally dry so I've never had to consider wet decks. Can anyone here with more experience give me some insight into whether wet, but not rotted, decks around hardware will in fact "fix itself" if we rebed the hardware and stop more water?

Thanks,
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Old 20-04-2012, 10:00   #52
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

If there is water in the core and the core is wood what do you think will eventually happen? This is not quantum physics, its pretty simple and straight forward. Could the areas in question dry out? Yes, but not if you seal them up with moisture inside. You would have to make certain the area is completely dry before sealing it up.

Edited to add- there are many products on the market with which you can treat the core and people have varying opinions as to their effectiveness. The reason these products exist is because there is nothing on a boat that "will fix itself". If only there were...
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Old 20-04-2012, 10:08   #53
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

I think you are going to find that most boats out there have some wet deck core.... unless they are newer, or not cored. How significant it is depends on how extensively it has spread. Also in the mix is how the boat was built. If it's a modern vacuum molded deck with thin fiberglass that relies on the core a lot.... then it's more significant than an older boat with 1/4-3/8" fiberglass! Many people just ignore it. I'd be surprised if sealed in wet core will dry itself.....? But I wouldnt let a few minor core issues around fittings kill the sale if you like everything else.... as I said there are a heck of a lot of older boats out there with these issues. Some boats, Passport for one, were built using ~3" ply squares with resin saturated between squares to avoid wet core creep.... so any infiltration of water was isolated to the one square. In theory anyway....
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Old 20-04-2012, 10:19   #54
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

value of a specific boat can only be stated when those details -- what kind and year and history--are known factors. every boat is different.
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Old 20-04-2012, 11:18   #55
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorsailors View Post
Thanks for all the great feedback. Sorry for being intentionally obtuse in the original post. I wasn't looking for specific "what's the value of this specific boat" info since that would still be highly speculative. It is a very well-built "bluewater" cruiser from the '80s.

But, you all really helped give me a lot to think about regarding walking away or not. Where we are now is that at the end of the day, there are a lot of great bluewater boats in the 90-120k price range that we are shopping in. So, if this one falls through, we have several others that we are keen on and will consider the survey costs tuition.

I do have a question about the wet decks (around a few of the deck hardware areas). The surveyor (a very experienced dude who used to build boats and is also a yacht designer) said he was confident the wet decks did NOT have rot because there would be telltale grey-brown streaks in the cabin. He said that by rebedding the hardware and stopping new water eventually it would dry out because GRP and gelcoat is fundamentally porous.

My last boat (another 30 year old) didn't have wet decks and is totally dry so I've never had to consider wet decks. Can anyone here with more experience give me some insight into whether wet, but not rotted, decks around hardware will in fact "fix itself" if we rebed the hardware and stop more water?

Thanks,

You need a new surveyor. Sometimes (very rarely and only in extreme cases) I have seen headliner stains and streaking. I have also seen countless decks that were totally shot with no staining at all. Anyone who suggests to you that wet balsa core will "fix itself" if sealed up is probably not being totally straight forward with you. Cycles of wet/dry gaurantee dry rot. Unless it's NOT balsa core make sure it's dealt with in the price. It won't be cheap to fix, as even a series of fairly small core repairs usually means painting the decks.
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Old 20-04-2012, 11:25   #56
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

The surveyor is correct in that it will eventually dry -- as the surfaces are porous. HOWEVER, simply drying is not a desired outcome if the decks have wood core and fungal growth in the wood has started. This is more common than most people are willing to believe.

Below is a photo of my rotted transom that was recently replaced. The moisture meter readings indicated it was relatively dry, which was accurate. However, the rot had caused enough damage to affect its structural integrity.



Be sure to ask the surveyor how rot will fix itself. And given the age of the boat, this was a period where synthetic (non wood) cores were not yet commercially available on a large scale. It is HIGHLY unlikely your boat has synthetic cores.

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Old 20-04-2012, 11:40   #57
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

"It is a very well-built "bluewater" cruiser from the '80s." means nothing. what is marque and model and useful info for telling value--yes there is a blue book for yachts and boats. that book is from where the surveyor plucks the alleged value of your boat. without that, there is no value. everything surveyor writes is based on that number he /she finds in that book.
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Old 20-04-2012, 13:21   #58
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorsailors View Post
I do have a question about the wet decks (around a few of the deck hardware areas).

In addition to Minaret's response above, he has written about the subject in depth on other threads (as well as on other topics) - well worth searching up. The man knows of what he speaks .

Quote:
The surveyor (a very experienced dude who used to build boats and is also a yacht designer) said he was confident the wet decks did NOT have rot because there would be telltale grey-brown streaks in the cabin. He said that by rebedding the hardware and stopping new water eventually it would dry out because GRP and gelcoat is fundamentally porous.
I would treat everything else he has said about the boat as suspect, and if he has put comment that in writing (I suspect not) then I would refuse to pay him - he is either incompetent or a liar. and offer to meet him in court . Being on "freindly terms" with Brokers is not unheard of and that can cover a few sins, even if only of ommission / smoothing the edges to nudge a sale along.......and that applies whether the Broker suggested him or not (in a local industry everyone knows everyone else).

My take is that he has read you well (on your lack of knowledge - no offence meant) - but being "old school" hasn't quite understood how the internet works .
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Old 20-04-2012, 13:26   #59
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Below is a photo of my rotted transom that was recently replaced. The moisture meter readings indicated it was relatively dry, which was accurate. However, the rot had caused enough damage to affect its structural integrity.

Yep, super common on I/O powerboats. Everidently the idiots who build these just cut a hole for the lower unit and bolt it on! Amazing disregard for longevity... I've looked at several in the last 6 months and havent found a bayliner yet that wasnt rotten. (I've got a nice little awl that goes right in through the thin glass layer on every one...)
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Old 20-04-2012, 13:42   #60
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Below is a photo of my rotted transom that was recently replaced. The moisture meter readings indicated it was relatively dry, which was accurate. However, the rot had caused enough damage to affect its structural integrity.

Yep, super common on I/O powerboats. Everidently the idiots who build these just cut a hole for the lower unit and bolt it on! Amazing disregard for longevity... I've looked at several in the last 6 months and havent found a bayliner yet that wasnt rotten. (I've got a nice little awl that goes right in through the thin glass layer on every one...)

Yep, rotten powerboat transoms are our bread and butter. Probably the only thing I see rotten more than balsa core. Except maybe swimstep cores. We do loads of those too. Given that you have to remove the engine and lots of other stuff as well (many systems are often attached directly to the inside of the transom), you'd think they'd bother to build it right in the first place. The I/O cutout is often the culprit, but even more often it's trim tabs and other transom mounted hardware that was screwed right to the transom without proper bedding. Trim tabs in particular have a constant fairly high load on them and tend to have failed bedding often. I believe they should be pulled and re-bedded on a regular schedule.
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