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Old 19-04-2012, 08:38   #31
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You are going to bail on your deposit plus spend another twenty five grand on another boat (a boat with no survey?) because of a bad lightbulb?
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Old 19-04-2012, 09:26   #32
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

To the original poster:

Please be very careful in heeding the advice to cut the offer significantly. Like someone said earlier, it will most likely be a lose-lose situation; and you will end up without a boat and back to step one in the process. The only person winning is the surveyor because he/she got paid.

With that said, you have the ability to walk away from the transaction if something serious was uncovered in the survey and it would significantly affect your ability to stay within your budget. Based on what you indicated was revealed in the survey, what was uncovered was not serious.

Expecting the seller to essentially "give away" their relatively well maintained boat because it is a buyer's market will most likely result in an unfavorable outcome for both of you. The boats people are "giving away" in this market are mostly boats that will cost more to restore than what they are worth. If you knock 20K off the offer, think about what you will find in the 70K range...? If you can find a boat of the same quality and specs in the 70K range, then why bother with making an offer for 90K on a more expensive boat?

Look very carefully at what is available; and especially look carefully at what is available below the price you offered. If people are claiming it is a buyer's market and you can get a boat for next to nothing, those boats must be all over the place. The reality is that well maintained boats (regardless of age) will command a premium regardless of market conditions.
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Old 19-04-2012, 09:29   #33
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

You might want to check what the surveyor plans to put into the survey for recommendations. This list may have to be entirely attended to prior to you getting insurance. You can ask your proposed insurance company.
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Old 19-04-2012, 09:41   #34
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
It's easy here for people to tell you how easy it is to fab chain plates and how blisters are no big deal.
The reality is that it truly is a buyers market. You never told us what the manufacturer of the boat was. Likely you are paying too much since you only deducted 4% from the asking price. My boat is a 74 (38 years old) no blisters. My 1977 Ingrid 38 had no blisters. My 1966 Tartan Blackwatch...no blisters. Again...it's easy for people here to make erroneous statements regarding blisters. Chainplates need to be Stainless 316, machined, electropolished and buffed to a mirror finish, if you do not want them to bleed rust later on. I,m a Machinist/Toolmaker, I know.
Try selling a boat with blisters...it's not easy. If you really love the boat, by all means buy it but please deduct a peel and epoxy job for the bottom (usually $10,000 or more) and a chain plate fabrication and install (most likely $4000). That said, there are similar boats out there in better condition probably cheaper. Take your time and buy one time.

You left out another 20k to repair the rotten deck core. Moisture readings of 20% relative are fairly high, indicating a saturated core. Unless it's NOT a balsa core it definitely needs to be replaced. Whoever told the OP it would dry out by itself was a crook. It's definitely a cored deck, because the only way you can get readings that high on a solid glass deck is by trapping water under a teak deck and then removing it. Plus solid decks are just rare. If the wet areas are very small and confined to just the hardware mentioned, it could be much less (10k), but I doubt thats the case with a reading that high. I usually find a lot more saturation than the surveyor did once I start opening a deck up.
A few "non structural" blisters by themselves are no big deal to repair. But they do mean that the boat has likely never been peeled and barrier coated. If you want the blisters to never return and to be sure you have no problems with osmosis, saturation, and delamination, then it needs to be peeled and coated. Definitely 10k or more. Could be much more if it needs a lot of drying time and no hotvac is available.
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Old 19-04-2012, 09:48   #35
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
You left out another 20k to repair the rotten deck core. Moisture readings of 20% relative are fairly high, indicating a saturated core. Unless it's NOT a balsa core it definitely needs to be replaced. Whoever told the OP it would dry out by itself was a crook. It's definitely a cored deck, because the only way you can get readings that high on a solid glass deck is by trapping water under a teak deck and then removing it. Plus solid decks are just rare.
I agree but did not want to open myself up to being too negative about it. Most people here have not had to tear up decks and re-core. As you know that job is on the top 10 list of crappy jobs on a boat. I can't figure out why people want him to save the deal. There are so many nice boats out there and the intended use is only as a live-aboard. Hell...I'd buy a houseboat if that was the reason.
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Old 19-04-2012, 09:54   #36
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I agree but did not want to open myself up to being too negative about it. Most people here have not had to tear up decks and re-core. As you know that job is on the top 10 list of crappy jobs on a boat. I can't figure out why people want him to save the deal. There are so many nice boats out there and the intended use is only as a live-aboard. Hell...I'd buy a houseboat if that was the reason.


Yea, it's no fun to depress people. If I were the OP I'd find a really good local yard and get an estimate to repair these issues. Then I'd go back to the negotiating table. It all depends on how bad he wants this particular boat. It may be worth doing a survey on the higher priced model as well to see where it stands. This is why people should own and know how to use a moisture meter and a sounding hammer. Then they can "survey" boats on their own all they want with no expense other than haul out. Personally I think actual surveyors are only good for the uninitiated and so you can get insurance. I wouldn't hire one until I'd already made the decision myself. Too much money for almost no work.
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Old 19-04-2012, 09:57   #37
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Here's the thing, it is very easy to give the seller written quotes for the blister repair. I imagine they knew the boat had blisters when they listed it. Unless the boat had been surveyed previously, they most likely did not know about the moisture problems on the deck. That repair has a cost which can be gotten in writing from a few yards. The bulkheads require further investigation but that will also be a quotable cost (and don't let them tell you the cost for new metal and sticking epoxy in them, get a quote on doing the job correctly). I wouldn't ask for a reduction for rigging, that is an expected expense or nav lights, etc but I would explain that you aren't adjusting your offer for those because you don't want to nit pick. I guarantee that any US yard will come up with at least 25k for these 3 items. If the seller states that he adjusted the price nefore hand because he knew about them, I would be miffed that he didn't disclose them before I was out of pocket for deposit, haul out and survey.

If the seller doesn't want to adjust his price, keep looking. Eventually you will find a boat with a sales price that is fair for the condition of the boat and can go from there.

For us, we figure we paid about 15k more than we should but we also firmly believe the seller did not know about the issues. Heck, even our surveyor who was very good missed them. Some things you can't be sure of until you really rip into the boat. We feel that no education is free and in our case, our education cost around 15k. You can choose to learn something from our experience (which had very similar issues as your survey, minus the obvious chain plate issues and moisture readings) or you can pay for your own education. Either way, I wish you well and hope you find the right boat for your family soon.
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Old 19-04-2012, 10:07   #38
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

The question is are the few blister popping out because the boat has a history of bad blister problems?... or is it really just a few blisters? In this market you paid 95k on a 99k asking price? We know no more info I guess.... but that doesnt sound like much of a deal. I would ask for a reduction of whatever the experts say it wil require to strip and epoxy the bottom and repair the wet deck. that should get you about 15-20 k back. In a booming economy, I once signed a contract on a boat for 105k, (asking was 120k) after a survey came back with many 'wet' issues, I ended up buying the boat at 65k. OTOH, for all I know the boat was a terrific bargain at the listed price..... What boat is it?
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Old 19-04-2012, 11:06   #39
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Personally I think actual surveyors are only good for the uninitiated and so you can get insurance. I wouldn't hire one until I'd already made the decision myself. Too much money for almost no work.
You're a braver man than I and I agree totally. Off course that will raise a few hairs here. As you probably know and remember that 30 years ago most people did their own work on their boats (at least compared to now). They knew how to glass, install components and do much of their rigging. Now they depend on a guy with a Nams or Sams certification who probably has not done much repair. They have the market pretty much sewn up in regards to becoming a surveyor. If you wanted to become one, you must apprentice under a surveyor. Of course if does not want any competition in his area, he won't let you study under his ticket. To me, this should be changed. A person should be able to show work accomplished in the boating industry and an exam that follow. Perhaps a 2 year probation period following. This way I feel the art of surveying would be greatly enhanced.
A good plastic hammer and an awl is all I use to initially look at a boat. The only time I needed a surveyor was to borrow money one time for a boat.
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Old 19-04-2012, 11:15   #40
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
You're a braver man than I and I agree totally. Off course that will raise a few hairs here. As you probably know and remember that 30 years ago most people did their own work on their boats (at least compared to now). They knew how to glass, install components and do much of their rigging. Now they depend on a guy with a Nams or Sams certification who probably has not done much repair. They have the market pretty much sewn up in regards to becoming a surveyor. If you wanted to become one, you must apprentice under a surveyor. Of course if does not want any competition in his area, he won't let you study under his ticket. To me, this should be changed. A person should be able to show work accomplished in the boating industry and an exam that follow. Perhaps a 2 year probation period following. This way I feel the art of surveying would be greatly enhanced.
A good plastic hammer and an awl is all I use to initially look at a boat. The only time I needed a surveyor was to borrow money one time for a boat.
While I agree with this "mostly"... I will say that it seems a good surveyor always discovers one thing that I may have missed... or maybe it's the discussion between us that is good. The other thing is, the surveyor practices almost daily at hearing the hammer ring... and sometimes gets to see the results (during repair) of what he thinks he found..... If I buy a boat every 3 years and trust my hammer technique.... well.... I'm not that "educated"....
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Old 19-04-2012, 11:24   #41
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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non structural blisters and moisture readings are bs. so is banging hull with a ballpeen hammer. tap with fingernail. works well without stress and trauma to gelcoat.
if you wish to walk away and place 25 percent more on a boat, you are welcome to so do .
if you wish to buy this boat, offer what you think is worth to you.
you showed no pix nor description of boat so i cannot advise as to value/worth nor blue book numbers.

none of the problems is a deal breaker, nor are they added together to make a deal breaker---asking price is merely that-- you make off you think is worthy and see where it all goes. good luck.
If a surveyor really did hit a hull with a ball pein hammer (especially with the round end), you could justifiably be very upset. However, the surveyors I'm familiar with use large, nylon or wooden mallets. These are not going to do any damage.
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Old 19-04-2012, 12:28   #42
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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If a surveyor really did hit a hull with a ball pein hammer (especially with the round end), you could justifiably be very upset. However, the surveyors I'm familiar with use large, nylon or wooden mallets. These are not going to do any damage.

This is just wrong. The reason a small nylon ball peen hammer is the right tool for the job is that you are looking for small voids well as delamination. Only a very small ball peen will find these. No damage will be done. Any really good surveyor will know to peen the radii and other common places for voids.
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Old 19-04-2012, 17:24   #43
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

I've seen it done deftly with a small steel ball peen (flat end highly polished and smooth) or with the same thing in hard plastic. Never any ill effect. It's a judicious tapping... not hammering. Certainly less impact than a shackle dropped from waist level.....
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Old 19-04-2012, 19:36   #44
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Finally got back to this thread and suggest another alternative to re-negotiating the price. Have the seller fix all the issues that turned up on the survey to both the buyer and the surveyors satisfaction. A surveyor shouldn't be engaged IMHO until the buyer has completed his/her own inspection and noted any deficiencies. Then accompany the surveyor on his inspection, pointing out the items the potential buyer has already turned up.
On a transpac 49 I sold about 15 years ago, the surveyor turned up rot in the upper end of the mizzen which was a surprise the me. As the seller, I said I would pull the mizzenmast at my expense, scarf in a new section to the buyers satisfaction and leave the price the same. Buyer was delighted as was I... ended up spending about $10K but the sale went through without a hitch, all parties happy.
As far as electrical goes, anyone who puts a boat on the market without fully functioning electrics should have their head examined. If nothing else it is a commentary on the lack of regular maintenance the vessel has experienced. If it is that simple, change the bloody bulb. Otherwise I would suspect the rest of the electrical system aboard. Electronics are something else, if non-functioning, note it and adjust price accordingly. Capt Phil
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Old 19-04-2012, 19:50   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil
Finally got back to this thread and suggest another alternative to re-negotiating the price. Have the seller fix all the issues that turned up on the survey to both the buyer and the surveyors satisfaction. A surveyor shouldn't be engaged IMHO until the buyer has completed his/her own inspection and noted any deficiencies. Then accompany the surveyor on his inspection, pointing out the items the potential buyer has already turned up.
On a transpac 49 I sold about 15 years ago, the surveyor turned up rot in the upper end of the mizzen which was a surprise the me. As the seller, I said I would pull the mizzenmast at my expense, scarf in a new section to the buyers satisfaction and leave the price the same. Buyer was delighted as was I... ended up spending about $10K but the sale went through without a hitch, all parties happy.
As far as electrical goes, anyone who puts a boat on the market without fully functioning electrics should have their head examined. If nothing else it is a commentary on the lack of regular maintenance the vessel has experienced. If it is that simple, change the bloody bulb. Otherwise I would suspect the rest of the electrical system aboard. Electronics are something else, if non-functioning, note it and adjust price accordingly. Capt Phil
+1 on the electrics

If it is simple the owner should have it fixed already.

Defects are like scabs, each one waiting to be picked by a prospective buyer...

(ok that sounds gross)
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