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Old 18-04-2012, 20:08   #16
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

non structural blisters and moisture readings are bs. so is banging hull with a ballpeen hammer. tap with fingernail. works well without stress and trauma to gelcoat.
if you wish to walk away and place 25 percent more on a boat, you are welcome to so do .
if you wish to buy this boat, offer what you think is worth to you.
you showed no pix nor description of boat so i cannot advise as to value/worth nor blue book numbers.

none of the problems is a deal breaker, nor are they added together to make a deal breaker---asking price is merely that-- you make off you think is worthy and see where it all goes. good luck.
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Old 18-04-2012, 21:06   #17
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Originally Posted by zeehag
non structural blisters and moisture readings are bs. so is banging hull with a ballpeen hammer. tap with fingernail. works well without stress and trauma to gelcoat.
if you wish to walk away and place 25 percent more on a boat, you are welcome to so do .
if you wish to buy this boat, offer what you think is worth to you.
you showed no pix nor description of boat so i cannot advise as to value/worth nor blue book numbers.

none of the problems is a deal breaker, nor are they added together to make a deal breaker---asking price is merely that-- you make off you think is worthy and see where it all goes. good luck.
Zee - All the respect for you in the world but respectfully disagree on the fingernail.

We are not talking hammering the deck and tap testing of composite structure is tried and true going back to WWII mechanics days. A heavy coin also works and of course we are not trying to dent the surface, we are listening for different sounds across a limited area around deck fittings identified.
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Old 18-04-2012, 21:50   #18
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

I don't understand why somebody purchasing a 25 year old boat expects it to be delivered to them free of problems. Unless the boat is advertised as a "turn key" and "flawless" boat and is priced accordingly, the buyer should expect to perform some repairs...and at their cost.

It is a 25 year old boat! Blistering is VERY common and not difficult to address.

A survey does not give the buyer a free ticket to repairs. It does allow the buyer to know what they should expect and perhaps gives the seller incentive to work with the buyer to get the issues resolved. If the buyer wants a boat free of problems, they should pay for such a boat. Just my two cents...

With respect to the survey findings. The blisters are an easy fix. They are time consuming and depending on their size and number, can have a pretty hefty materials bill involved too.

The chain plates can (I do emphasize "can") present issues if the oxidation has found itself outside of the plates and into the fiberglass and even wood cores. Do check the wood cores especially.

The moisture readings of .20 are very common for boats this age. The information provided by moisture meters paints a very small part of a big picture. Resin and gelcoat are not immune from osmosis. If the boat has been sitting in water, water will find its way through the material and consequently give higher readings on the meter. The presence of moisture is not necessarily ensuring the presence of rot. Ask the surveyor to take core samples (if the seller allows) to determine whether critical areas are rotted. That will give you the best information.

If you use this as an opportunity to knock a considerable amount off the offer, you risk the prospect of insulting the seller. When my boat was on the market, I had an incident where the buyer attempted to use "flaws" on a 35 year old boat to reduce his offer by 25%. I kindly asked him to step off my boat and escorted him out of the marina. He emailed later to retract the reduction but I refused to sell to him on principle.
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Old 18-04-2012, 22:02   #19
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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Originally Posted by Astral Blue View Post

If you use this as an opportunity to knock a considerable amount off the offer, you risk the prospect of insulting the seller. When my boat was on the market, I had an incident where the buyer attempted to use "flaws" on a 35 year old boat to reduce his offer by 25%. I kindly asked him to step off my boat and escorted him out of the marina. He emailed later to retract the reduction but I refused to sell to him on principle.
I have seen this happen more than once. If you are buying in the area you live, staying friend and in touch with the Previous owner can be a huge positive.
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Old 18-04-2012, 22:51   #20
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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I have seen this happen more than once. If you are buying in the area you live, staying friend and in touch with the Previous owner can be a huge positive.
Yes. I have maintained a great relationship with the previous owner and have benefited greatly from it. Since he knew the boat inside and out, he helped me out tremendously in getting to know the boat. For the first few months, I was emailing him on a weekly basis; and the good relationship I had with him paid off tenfold.

And instead of making an insultingly low offer, I gave him several hundred dollars additional because he was beyond helpful in delivering the boat and making sure I was comfortable with everything.
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Old 19-04-2012, 00:54   #21
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Originally Posted by Astral Blue
.

If you use this as an opportunity to knock a considerable amount off the offer, you risk the prospect of insulting the seller. When my boat was on the market, I had an incident where the buyer attempted to use "flaws" on a 35 year old boat to reduce his offer by 25%. I kindly asked him to step off my boat and escorted him out of the marina. He emailed later to retract the reduction but I refused to sell to him on principle.
Sounds like a real lose-lose situation...

I find it strange to get angry over a negotiation.

Free market means a price is rached when both parties agree. Don't agree? Keep talking...

Age of boat is meaningless. Condition of boat compared to similar suitable examples vs. price is all that matters to the buyer.
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Old 19-04-2012, 01:18   #22
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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Sounds like a real lose-lose situation...

I find it strange to get angry over a negotiation.

Free market means a price is rached when both parties agree. Don't agree? Keep talking...

Age of boat is meaningless. Condition of boat compared to similar suitable examples vs. price is all that matters to the buyer.
That is it exactly, you agree on a price subject to an acceptable survey and sea trail, to then haggle about minor items trying to screw the seller down by another 1% does cause some bad feelings. If how ever the survey uncovers a serious and or expensive fault then bets are off and you would be entitled to re-negotiate. From what the PO has said here, its a dam good survey report.
We are seeing a clause added to sales by the vendor of AS IS WHERE IS.
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Old 19-04-2012, 01:39   #23
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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I don't understand why somebody purchasing a 25 year old boat expects it to be delivered to them free of problems. Unless the boat is advertised as a "turn key" and "flawless" boat and is priced accordingly, the buyer should expect to perform some repairs...and at their cost.

It is a 25 year old boat! Blistering is VERY common and not difficult to address.
I've been lurking here for almost a year and this post is enough to make me want to actually find my password.

You are saying the buyer shouldn't care about some major issues because it is a 25 year old boat?

What about the guy trying to sell a 25 year old boat for near $100k? You see no problem with that?

I'd offer half the asking price.
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Old 19-04-2012, 02:20   #24
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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I've been lurking here for almost a year and this post is enough to make me want to actually find my password.

You are saying the buyer shouldn't care about some major issues because it is a 25 year old boat?

What about the guy trying to sell a 25 year old boat for near $100k? You see no problem with that?

I'd offer half the asking price.
Then you wont buy a good boat. 100k boat that you get for 50K; you will have bought a problem.
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Old 19-04-2012, 02:58   #25
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

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I think you have bought the boat and you know it. It is now nerves kicking in with all the "what ifs" running through you head. Those other boats that you have not surveyed may be better but they could also be worse. That survey, with all that was found at fault, would be one of the best seen. Remember Surveyors will never give A 100% perfect report, they will always find some thing in each or the major systems , its called CARE (cover ass retain employment). Buy the boat.

Sounds as if taylorsailors is buying your vessel SimonV .
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Old 19-04-2012, 03:11   #26
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Not mine, but I have seen it happen over and over. Good boats sell and once a boat is listed under contract, the buyers come out of the woodwork and if the buyer pulls out, and they do for minor faults the others jump in. I don't know why but it seems to be one of those phenoms. And then the Original buyer comes back a week later after looking around and is disappointed their boat is gone.
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Old 19-04-2012, 05:08   #27
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Im just curious is this boat the OP is asking about an IP?
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Old 19-04-2012, 05:16   #28
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

Nothing on that list is totally unexpected on a 25 yo boat - but not to say that means any of it is Ok to have, let alone good.

Given that some (most?) of the items mentioned in the Survey would not have been known by you before the Survey then your offer was based on everything being "all good" (unless Vendor said otherwise) - that doesn't mean perfect or good as new - and plenty of room for interpretation, but IMO the decider is "Does it need fixing?".

In which case you need to price up the work needed (commercially) and then try and get it knocked off the price. You probably won't get every dollar - but every dollar you don't gets added to your purchase price. Appreciate that only one other same model boat on the market (which may be perfect, a pile of poo or likely somewhere in between) so not enough to give you a "market value". Therefore I would use other vessels of a similar type and size and vintage as your guide on pricing.

For the things that you mention which would give me pause for thought are the Blisters (odds are that there are more - or will be - and that is a major impact on resale price) and the deck wet spots (if cored). that is a structural issue. New Chainplates might be nice - but not if attached to a sandwich of soggy core, even if bodged up with Epoxy filler.

$100k on that age offers a lot of choices....a lot of rubbish and so so boats (with varying age / Owner! related issues), but always a few pearls around......even if some of them do still require some TLC (IMO replacing chainplates, grinding out blisters (that might turn into a full peel!) and lifting decks to replace soggy core is way beyond "needing a bit of TLC").

She sounds like a boat which has not had much attention for a number of years - and possibly also not much use. On which note I would have a damned good look at that Engine! and everything else.

Appreciate that you have forked out for a Survey (and Haulout?) as well as having invested time (and emotional energy) but all that is small beer compared to buying badly - the cash alone would barely get someone to waive a spanner / angle grinder at one item on the survey......personally I would look for something else, unless the Vendor got very serious on dropping the price ($30k+? - you do the figures to fix)....I wouldn't waive that at the Vendor as a negotiating strategy but simply as the reason you are walking away (too much money to fix, too much aggro and too much uncertainty - likely other stuff that Survey did not spot or was underestimated)....and if that turns into a deal you can live with (by Vendor dropping price majorly) then all well and good, if not - don't sweat it and move on. It's not all wasted time and money - you've learnt a lot.
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Old 19-04-2012, 08:06   #29
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

It's easy here for people to tell you how easy it is to fab chain plates and how blisters are no big deal.
The reality is that it truly is a buyers market. You never told us what the manufacturer of the boat was. Likely you are paying too much since you only deducted 4% from the asking price. My boat is a 74 (38 years old) no blisters. My 1977 Ingrid 38 had no blisters. My 1966 Tartan Blackwatch...no blisters. Again...it's easy for people here to make erroneous statements regarding blisters. Chainplates need to be Stainless 316, machined, electropolished and buffed to a mirror finish, if you do not want them to bleed rust later on. I,m a Machinist/Toolmaker, I know.
Try selling a boat with blisters...it's not easy. If you really love the boat, by all means buy it but please deduct a peel and epoxy job for the bottom (usually $10,000 or more) and a chain plate fabrication and install (most likely $4000). That said, there are similar boats out there in better condition probably cheaper. Take your time and buy one time.
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Old 19-04-2012, 08:24   #30
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Re: Survey came back and there are issues

everyone has a different price that gets to be paid for working on boats--my chainplates cost me less than 200 dollars with installation.
i have worked so long at listening to various differing sounds in nursing with minimal input of my own that i CAN use non threatening tools and fingernails to discern different sounds. apprenticing with a surv3eyor is a good thing to have done. was fun and informative.
if you dont want to buy the boat. leave it-- go find another one and see what you think on that one.
have fun and remember--all used boa5s have issues. ALL of em do. is YOUR choice as to what defects YOU can live with.
have fun and good hunting.
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