Sailing With paying guests?

[billknny]

Originally Posted by nasaunders

I have been "paying crew" on boats for 10 years. Depending on the location of the boat, I have paid $35-$65 a day. That includes food, fuel, docking/mooring fees, etc. Each crew member had galley duty on a rotating basis along with helping sail, keeping watch, etc. The skippers didn't have any permits or licenses. One didn't have insurance. Overall, it has been a great experience and I have met a lot of wonderful people from all over the world.

Of course having fun doesn't make it legal. Not that YOU have done anything illegal, but the boat's owners and captain would be breaking the law in the USA, and in many other places.

I would never get on a boat running an illegal charter. To my mind there are two possibilities: The skipper is ignorant of the law, which means he is probably ignorant of many other things about sailing; or he is choosing to flout the law. If he is willfully ignoring this law, then what else is going on I might not want to get involved in?

[moseriw]

@billknny
But we are sailors and in fact I do not want to be chained by law like it is nowadays. Look around, if there is something you want to do you will not do it as the struggle to do it by law will avoid 90% of all activity.

Sorry but this lawful community is nothing but a concentration camp.
What about a community that relies on morals like it was?

And I think these US-Citizens are the better Prussians.

[Lihuedooley77]

Apparently the OP is in GERMANY .

Pretty bloody simple. Follow the procedures and regulations laid out by your local authority.

Or not , and do what you want to as an illegal charter.

In order to sit for my 100 ton U.S.C.G. Merchant Marine Officers license I had to have
720 days of documented sea time. That took 5 years of working at an instructor and charter skipper. All listed as crew on the USCG testing application. Proof of sea time was from the Sailing Club's computer records.

I was on my 5 th issue ( renew every 5 years ). On the 5th issue, the USCG upgraded the tonage to 500 ( near coastal ). I am now retired from sailing for compensation or hire. But Erica and I are still bare boating world wide .

The United States, U.S.C.G used the terminology for COMPENSATION OR HIRE and that means most anything paid or insinuated.

Won't get into any more of this topic since my experience is all with the U.S. Coast Guard and do not know jack daniels about Germany . But I have found that following procedures is the best plan for most anything in life. Those procedures are there for a reason.

For myself that was not only skippering vessels but, also a professional pilot that
took two years plus to go thru the private, commercial, instrument, muliti engine and CFI ( certified flight instructor ratings ) . Retired now with 6500 hrs total time, over about 35 years ...as a flight instructor , charter pilot, corporate pilot, and Air Combat Instructor flying 5 and 6 G dogfights ( Air Combat U.S.A 17 yrs and 2500 missions ).

Point being , having both sailing, motor vessels, instructing, charter capt, and flotila leader, and concurrently flying for a living had resulted in an amazing nearly 40 years
of a fantasic, adventure filled life.

But, both career paths took following the required procedures, work, study, real experience, and dedication .

Out.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by billknny

Of course having fun doesn't make it legal. Not that YOU have done anything illegal, but the boat's owners and captain would be breaking the law in the USA, and in many other places.

I would never get on a boat running an illegal charter. To my mind there are two possibilities: The skipper is ignorant of the law, which means he is probably ignorant of many other things about sailing; or he is choosing to flout the law. If he is willfully ignoring this law, then what else is going on I might not want to get involved in?

In most of the world, that is not illegal charter at all -- it's volunteer crew on a shared expense basis, a widespread practice.



I'm not sure it would neccessarily be illegal charter in the U.S. either, the way he described it -- depending on the "voluntariness" of the payments. I can well imagine that if the owner advertises "looking for volunteer crew for a shared adventure cruising bla bla; we normally chip in on direct expenses", that this might well fit the letter of the law, depending on the way it's actually being interpreted. I wouldn't jump to "willfully ignoring the law" and "illegal chartering".

[lars]

Don't think that it has been mentioned but the legal charter operators who have jumped through all the hoops to make a living will put a stop to this operation really quick.

[alex_sauvage]

I have slightly different scenario, but closely related one to the topic in hand here and I will be interested in your opinion. Right now every year I am chartering boats with a group of friends and we obviously are splitting the cost. I am thinking about buying a boat and putting it in charter. I know it is hotly debated point, so let's not go there yet. I would probably be going sailing with the same people, but now on my boat in charter. Would that be legal (considering we are doing it outside USA) to expect my friends to pay what would be their portion if we actually chartered the boat or I cannot take any money from them? I don't mind that, but it makes a difference from financial point of view having boat in charter. It is said that significant benefit is ability to use free charter weeks. But right now I am only paying 1/3 of the cost, so from financial perspective it makes a big difference since that "benefit" would be noticably less.

[Sojourner]

We thought about chartering when we got our boat at first. But between the doubled insurance, licenses, inspections, it wasnt worth it at all for occasional charters. You gotta run numbers to see how many paying charters you need per year to break even and then how much you want to make if everything goes well. Ie it seems hard to make it a hobby, as opposed to real full time work.

As for under the table? There were some russians hanging around our winter marina in corfu last month who were looking for someone to take them around for a few hours, gonna throw maybe 3-400 euros. We weren't doing anything, and I love russians (one wife is russian, so we speak russian too). Asked our greek friend about the idea. He said sure, go for it. But if you get boarded and your 'friends' stories don't match, they will impound your boat.

We moonwalked right outta that situation. Risk = probability of loss x magnitude of loss. Even if the probability was small, the magnitude of losing our home is not something we can play with.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

Or not , and do what you want to as an illegal charter.

And if that is your choice, I for one do not want to hear any whining about how unfair the world is if (when) you get caught and have to suffer the (sometimes quite severe) consequences!

[Visarend]

Have a look at sailsquare.com. You shall find some answers to your questions, and lots of examples as well.

[double u]

Originally Posted by moseriw

@billknny
But we are sailors and in fact I do not want to be chained by law like it is nowadays. Look around, if there is something you want to do you will not do it as the struggle to do it by law will avoid 90% of all activity.

Sorry but this lawful community is nothing but a concentration camp.
What about a community that relies on morals like it was?

And I think these US-Citizens are the better Prussians.

My sentiments entirely!
First: all you US americans: how “americo-centric you are! You apparently are a very litigious (is that the right term?) people, living in an overregulated society (apart from your gun laws, that in EVERY civiliz.ed country are considered NUTS, utterly crazy!). All your regulations do not necess arily apply all over the world (much as it seemed in the past you wanted to force them on other countries...)
Second: we have a number of friends doing just this “illegal, highly suspicious“ thing of “taking paying guests“. Some in the Med, some in the Carribean, some in the Pacific, some just “island cruising“, some on passages too. There has to be a considerable number of boats all over the world doing the same, as our friends are all of one european nationality & I would be very much surprised if there were not any number of boats of other nationalities (NO USA boats of course...) also taking p aying guests.
No tragedies that we know of-any actual case histories the nay-sayers can contribute? Just one?
Taking paying guests was never an option for us on any of our 3,3 circumnavigations, but NOT because of the “illegality“ of it. The important question the OP has to ask himself is : “Am I the kind of person to share the confined space, the lack of privacy,... 24h a day with total strangers?“

[double u]

“To my mind there are two possibilities: The skipper is ignorant of the law, which means he is probably ignorant of many other things about sailing; or he is choosing to flout the law. If he is willfully ignoring this law, then what else is going on I might not want to get involved in?“
“Holier than thou“...
You of course never broke even the tiniest law...

[john61ct]

Every US citizen commits an average of three*felonies per day.

99.99% of the time without any awareness they have done so.

This allows the authorities to persecute, or at least bring pressure to bear on anyone they like, for any arbitrary reason.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Every US citizen commits an average of three*felonies per day.

99.99% of the time without any awareness they have done so.

This allows the authorities to persecute, or at least bring pressure to bear on anyone they like, for any arbitrary reason.

Would you care to offer some verification for this rather strong statement? ONe can but wonder how such statistics could possibly be obtained (other that distillation from moonbeams).

I rather doubt it's veracity myself.

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Every US citizen commits an average of three*felonies per day.

99.99% of the time without any awareness they have done so.

This allows the authorities to persecute, or at least bring pressure to bear on anyone they like, for any arbitrary reason.

Can you cite any evidence for these claims besides Rush Limabugh or Brietbart?

Frankly, when you cite stuff like this you lose ALL credibility from people with functioning brains.

[john61ct]

GIYF

https://bit.ly/2MFxzWw