Visit our Popular Forums

john61ct · 09-10-2019, 16:40

And again, once you are operating in jurisdictions where the **actual** authorities barely give lip service to the rule of law,

then no matter how simple or complex the regs are, they are simply irrelevant.

Go into partnership with the right local has enough juice, you can do anything you like, including drugs pimping gambling.

OTOH try to freelance when your competition has those connections, you could have spent a quarter mill USD on getting legal and doesn't matter, you won't be allowed to operate,

worst case lose your boat, de facto trumps de jure every time

capiche?

wingssail · 09-10-2019, 16:55

A lot of people do this, under the table, and get away with it.

You jeopardy begins if something goes wrong. Any accident may bring lawyers and officials into the picture. You insurance my not cover you if the investigator decides you were operating as a charter without the proper licenses. You may be subject to fines or criminal penalties if the Coast Guard comes to the same conclusion. You could wind up in jail or lose your boat or both.

Or you could just get away with it.

And then...there is the fact that you are now going into the hospitality industry. You guests, since they are paying, may expect to be treated like royalty, and equally as bad, may treat you like a waiter and hired hand. Some skippers and mates handle that fine. It's not my way of enjoying my boat.

**TrentePieds** · 09-10-2019, 17:11

Oh, John - what a cynic you are ;-0.!!

But you are spot on for all that :-)

Cheers

TrentePieds

john61ct · 09-10-2019, 17:18

Don't ask me how I know

**a64pilot** · 09-10-2019, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingssail

A lot of people do this, under the table, and get away with it.

You jeopardy begins if something goes wrong. Any accident may bring lawyers and officials into the picture. You insurance my not cover you if the investigator decides you were operating as a charter without the proper licenses. You may be subject to fines or criminal penalties if the Coast Guard comes to the same conclusion. You could wind up in jail or lose your boat or both.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...2-A65E7CA514D6

There is a lot more of this, but I can’t find it. Turns out she insisted he take $20 to help pay for fuel. The FAA took that into account and issued some kind of penalty due to that, after the FAA took action, then the local DA decided to push it and charge him.
If he hadn’t taken the $20 then it would have just been a bad accident.

Even the idiot FAA investigator quoted in the article got FAR 91.119 wrong, he was in a sparsely populated area.

CassidyNZ · 09-10-2019, 18:11

So in the event that I take paying passengers (I haven’t yet), I would take their payment in advance in cash. Then if things go wrong that negatively affect the passenger(s) and they choose to lawyer up, I will simply respond that they never paid me, I would be paying them to crew for me and because they never diligently attended their duties, I’m now out of pocket and will be withholding their fee due to non-performance. And if they manage to force some sort of settlement for “being crew”, I’ll pay it using their money. I mean, after all, I am 70 years old and need some help to sail my boat. No? My Cat 1 clearance would list them on my crew list whether they’re paying or not.

Who is going to prove either story right or wrong?

wingssail · 09-10-2019, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

So in the event that I take paying passengers (I haven’t yet), I would take their payment in advance in cash. Then if things go wrong that negatively affect the passenger(s) and they choose to lawyer up, I will simply respond that they never paid me, I would be paying them to crew for me and because they never diligently attended their duties, I’m now out of pocket and will be withholding their fee due to non-performance. And if they manage to force some sort of settlement for “being crew”, I’ll pay it using their money. I mean, after all, I am 70 years old and need some help to sail my boat. No? My Cat 1 clearance would list them on my crew list whether they’re paying or not.

Who is going to prove either story right or wrong?

Crazy plan, nobody will believe you, and that's even assuming none of them bothered to print this post.

belizesailor · 09-10-2019, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

@ gordmay

thanks a lot for this terrific insight, man!

I am not speaking about chartering as a business, but as a win/win for private (world) cruisers, by meeting new people on a sometimes lonely trip and getting payed a few bucks - paying for the monthly diesel cost and making it chaeper for the guests than commercial charter.

If you take on paying guests, it is by definition a commercial charter (how much you charge or how frequently is irrelevant). To do that legally, requires complying with regulations for that venue. To not comply is running illegal charters.

Some venues have more enforcement/consequences than others...and some less of course.

Re whether running charters is a good or bad experiece. A lot depends on captain and crew. Ive worked as a charter captain part-time since 1994. Ive run hundreds of charters and only ever had one bad one. Quite a few who became repeat guests/friends.

**Jim Cate** · 09-10-2019, 21:18

One would suspect that the OP would be doing this in some desirable cruising area... why else hang out there? But in many such areas there are local and legitimate folks running charters, and believe me, they will soon know about your under the radar (ha) operation, and they will NOT like it. Depending on the location, their response may be to rat you out to the authorities, and it may be to physically abuse you or your boat. We've seen both situations, and none of them came out well for the "charterer".

It is a risky biz to take up, and would spoil cruising for any thoughtful skipper. Looking over your shoulder all the time can give you a very stiff neck!

Jim

double u · 09-10-2019, 21:45

“...
Do be careful that you don't in this regard, as in regard to yacht design and seamanship, get yourself up the proverbial creek!...“

Thank you, 30', I too find some of his dogmatisms ...

valhalla360 · 10-10-2019, 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

I’m not aware of any “friends and family” constraint. The tricky bit is that it must be voluntary - it cannot be an advance requirement to be carried that they share the cost.

And yes, obviously you could get screwed if they asserted it was in fact not voluntary, but a requirement to be carried.

I had a bit of interaction with lawyers and their explanations of these laws when doing a bit of consulting with a company which wanted to do “Airbnb for boats” - but I am certainly no expert on them.

It may be a default assumption unless they can be shown to be friends or family. Some random stranger is unlikely to walk up unsolicited and offer to voluntarily share the cost and then you decide, great I want to take this random stranger on a trip in a small boat.

So the question is how did you get from total stranger to "voluntarily" sharing costs. Anyone on the outside looking objectively, is unlikely to believe anyone other than friends or family would be involved in such a transaction "voluntarily".

Particularly if you solicited people online (or otherwise) to sail with you....it has all the earmarks of a business transaction if they aren't friends or family.

CassidyNZ · 10-10-2019, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingssail

Crazy plan, nobody will believe you, and that's even assuming none of them bothered to print this post.

Believe, don’t believe, litigation is all about proof. Who cares what someone “believes”?

wingssail · 10-10-2019, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Believe, don’t believe, litigation is all about proof. Who cares what someone “believes”?

Pretty bold talk.

But when it comes down to "he said" "she said"...

It's what the judge will believe that determines your fate.

john61ct · 10-10-2019, 15:48

What jurisdiction again? Most would not bother with courts at all for something like this. In many, they'll just take your boat and deport you, good luck trying to get it back, or even finding an honest lawyer.

Listen you may just get away with it, just be aware of the downside and don't bet more than you're willing to lose.