Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-11-2013, 16:20   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Ripped off by vendor

It seems this is happening more as it has become more of a buyer's market. People think they aren't getting the value from high end products on the boat and so are selling them off on eBay. Of course they don't tell the buyer that and the buyer doesn't find out until it is to late. One way around this is to insist on an escrow account and to do a thorough inventory check. I remember one seller who was accused of replacing much of the gear on his boat with faulty gear and using the good equipment on a new project.
__________________

__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 16:43   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia, Central Coast.
Boat: Boden 36 Triple chine long keel steel, named Nekeyah
Posts: 776
Re: Ripped off by vendor

In QLD this should be your first port of call:
www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au


Regards,
Richard.
__________________

__________________
boden36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 16:55   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sydney, australia
Boat: 38 roberts ketch
Posts: 1,021
Images: 3
Re: Ripped off by vendor

yeah, unfortunately theres a big fat 'caveat emptor' sign on boat transactions in Queensland - they just dont seem to have any regulatory controls up there. The brokers are also pretty much exempt form sanctions on bad behaviour too. If you dont get any joy from them a few details on here might at least serve as a warning for anyone else.
__________________
charliehows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 16:59   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlantic ICW 29N/81W
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 36CC, now sold
Posts: 817
Re: Ripped off by vendor

I have just put it down to experience and we are close enough now to everything being sorted to our liking to let it drift into memory. Just don't buy a boat from someone called Urbanski fom Upstate New York or via Edwards Yacht sales in Florida unless you monitor every step of the way personally and withhold funds until ALL is accounted for. We had a good surveyor and survey, no complaints there or with our own 'buyers broker' who was excellent.

This may well be what happens in a buyers market, we did get the boat for a good price, from memory about 20% under asking price give or take a dollar or two , so we had some reserves in our budget use to put things right
We love our new boat, especially as it is now customized for us and I don't want this to sour that simple pleasure so as they say 'Shit happens', just move on! 'Cheats never prosper', hopefully will apply eventually , so we will have faith in that process .

IT would be nice though to think things will improve with the market and people will become ethical again..
__________________
Robin3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 17:57   #20
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,666
Re: Ripped off by vendor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Thanks guys. We're in Australia. I think we're the victims of a low budget grift which will be no big deal if it doesn't get resolved, but I'm annoyed enough to spend some effort persuing the matter. I just wonder were the broker stands in all this having made emphatic promises on just this very issue.

Just waiting now to hear back from the broker today. I do have to say however that the brokers have been fantastic to deal with (at least before they got our money, lol) but the vendors have given me the impression, unfairly or otherwise, that they couldn't lie straight in bed.
Reefmagnet:

Look very carefully at the existing paper work; it is your only documentation of any "promises". If there are substantial items listed that are now not there, I believe at least a friendly discussion with a solicitor will be called for.

As far as I know, you may have to take this to court, and get a judge's judgment against the perp (the vendor), which the Marshall can help serve on the perp's bank account. It will be a lengthy proposition; but you are in the right, and it does no one any good to let the sleaze bags get away with it.

Good luck with it, and persevere.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 02:08   #21
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,735
Re: Ripped off by vendor

Well, as predicted the broker didn't call back today. And yes, we did get the boat for the "offer half and don't be surprised if you get it price" (I actually posted a thread asking advice on some of the faults we found with the vessel earlier) so for around these parts it was a good price. Having said that, however, like all cheap boats it will eventually require more than a fair share of cash and sweat equity to be added, so from our perspective the price really was fair with all factors considered.

I guess my bone of contention is that I smelled a rat prior to settlement and specifically asked the broker to hold a sum of money aside in trust as opposed to delaying settlement until we had inspected the boat this weekend to which the broker emphatically replied that we should have good faith in the vendor and he had no doubt - to quote him almost verbosely - that "that good faith would be rewarded". Anyway, I think they were fed bs as well so I can't be too harsh with them. The stupid thing is that I swallowed the Vendor's story that they couldn't put the stuff on the boat until the Sunday afternoon (after settlement) which in turn caused us to postpone our inspection for a week (we need to leave the site at 3:00pm at the latest to come home due to the length of the journey), and that's why the alarm bell started ringing when I found out by chance they were there on the Thursday beforehand "doing something with the outboard". Oh well, I guess we can chalk that one up to another of life's lessons!

Anyway, I'm off to Gumtree and Ebay to look for liferafts and outboards lol.
__________________
Reefmagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 04:01   #22
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,965
Re: Ripped off by vendor

I don't know about Australia, but in the US I would focus on the broker. The broker is an agent of the seller and you can (and are legally expected to) rely on his statements. He told you the inventory would be there. You relied on that statement when closing. It was (and continues to be) a false statement. Nothing more is needed to file a complaint against his business.

This will focus the broker's mind on how best to save his business. While he will certainly try to claim it is not his problem, he really doesn't want a public record or publicity with these details.

He might, for example, offer to cover some of your loss out of his commission.
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 08:35   #23
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,666
Re: Ripped off by vendor

The big problem here is that if it wasn't written down, i.e., there's no paper trail, the OP's pretty helpless. While a cynic may believe him, knowing about these kinds of things, you really need documentation if you want to have success in this situation.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 08:36   #24
Registered User
 
lorenzo b's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Panama
Boat: Steel trawler 63' Eileen Farrell
Posts: 961
Re: Ripped off by vendor

The reason people use brokers is that they are required to carry insurance, so just go to a lawyer and sue him. You will get everything you bought and your recovery expenses. His insurance company will insist on it.
__________________
lorenzo b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 14:12   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Ripped off by vendor

I don't know anything about Australian law.

In the US I would either sue them both in what we call "Small Claims Court" or sue them both using a lawyer.

If you owned the boat on the day the PO took the stuff (as I undersand it, the broker said that to you at the time it was happening) I would file a police report.

But!! If your sales contract does not list the items you have little chance. If your sales contract says all items present at time of survey (or some other time you saw the boat) and you have pictures then you should be OK.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 15:51   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sydney, australia
Boat: 38 roberts ketch
Posts: 1,021
Images: 3
Re: Ripped off by vendor

hmm, a dink and outboard - thats $2000 at least, id go and talk to the cops. But you're probably best to forget it and chalk one up to your instincts being right but not being rude enough in your own interests. Once the money has changed hands...
If they dont do the right thing - some details might at least be of use to the rest of us.
__________________
charliehows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 17:04   #27
Registered User
 
JMR324's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post

Pretty much.

You bought those items, whether they're on the boat or not. If you have pictures of them and someone saw the owner take them, I think you're in a good position. It doesn't really matter if he took them last week, tomorrow, or six months from now. If he trailed the boat away itself it's not like possession beats out the contract.

I'd contact the seller's broker (or "the" broker, if there's only one) and tell him to put the items back in 48 hours that you purchased or you're filing a police report.

At 48.001 hours, take your paperwork, photos, and names/contact info of everyone and call the police department (that the boat and owner is in), and report the theft.

Even if they don't just drive over there and tell him to give the stuff back, that police report is what you'll need (in the States, anyway) for any future litigation.

Just don't roll over on it. Be clear, have a path that ultimately gives you back the things that are rightfully yours, and let the owner correct the problem along the way before it escalates.

I'm not an attorney but have a laymen's understanding of the law and have seen some boat legal problems in the US.
Speaking from law enforcement background... It actually does matter in the U.S. when the items were taken because there was a "contract" . The presence of the contract steers this to a civil matter and civil court unless the items were taken "after" posession of the boat was completed. If the items were missing and listed in the "contract" when the deal was completed, the"contract" is the vehicle... If taken "after"... It's a theft.
__________________
JMR324 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 18:32   #28
Registered User
 
Wraith_Mac's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia
Boat: Avon Rib, 65hp
Posts: 304
Re: Ripped off by vendor

Report it to the police, it's theft, if you do nothing they keep on thieving.
The broker vouched for the vendor, the broker gets your stuff delivered to you or is equally responsible.
Removing an outboard or anything from YOUR vessel without your permission, even if he was the prior owner is theft isn't it, not non-delivery.
If you don't get satisfaction from the brokerage, at least name it here as a warning to others.
Hope you get somewhere with this,
Mac
__________________
NEW SCIENCE: You fund the research and we provide the desired facts.
NEW ECONOMICS:See Above, obfuscation extra.
Wraith_Mac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 18:41   #29
Registered User
 
JMR324's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
Report it to the police, it's theft, if you do nothing they keep on thieving.
The broker vouched for the vendor, the broker gets your stuff delivered to you or is equally responsible.
Removing an outboard or anything from YOUR vessel without your permission, even if he was the prior owner is theft isn't it, not non-delivery.
If you don't get satisfaction from the brokerage, at least name it here as a warning to others.
Hope you get somewhere with this,
Mac
It's non-delivery if he didn't own the boat when it was removed. If he owned the boat, I agree with you.
__________________
JMR324 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 20:18   #30
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,735
Re: Ripped off by vendor

Cheers guys.

Most of the stuff was never on the boat and the outboard was removed the day before we settled so the owner hasn't technically stolen anything, more so they failed to supply all the items included in the sales contract.

The annoying thing is that we, and the broker to an extent, got played. These guys had it all figured. They set it up so it would take a week to figure out what they did, by which time of course they had their money.

I contacted the broker yesterday and he was "sure it's just some kind of misunderstanding" and he'll talk to the vendor and get back to me. I'm guessing if I wait for that to happen hell will freeze over first. I guess I'll pester him for a while but I think it'll be like getting blood out of a stone.

So, the lesson is don't part with your cash until you have physically sighted the boat and confirmed that everything that was part of the sale has been delivered.
__________________

__________________
Reefmagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:47.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.