Purchased yacht, but can't document. Broker unresponsive. Any advice?

[nematon785]

This is a bad situation, I don't always do the right thing so remember FWIW I would take the following action

Go to the Broker office in person, interrupt whatever he is doing, and demand a complete immediate refund.

Explain very simply the boat ownership has not been transferred, and it very well may be stolen, and the authorities will be notified. Explain simply you cannot accept responsibility for mooring or maintaining the vessel, as it does not belong to you and you cannot accept liability for a vessel that does not belong to you. Ownership has not been transfered!

Discontinue any insurance of the vessel, and notify the moorage it is not insured by you and does not belong to you. If they have questions, simply explain the vessel is not titled to you, it belongs to someone else. "who?" "Hell if I know..."

If you do not receive an immediate refund or clear chain of title, hire an attorney and sue. don't play games, sue. sue the broker personally by name, not the business name

Notify the local police that you would like to file a report that your money has been outright stolen in a clear case of fraud, and also point them towards a possible derelict or stolen vessel.

Go after his license, begin a massive negative publicity campaign against his office and his brokerage, especially if he operates as a sales person under an actual broker. ( I am a jerk, this may be vindictive and inappropriate, but it will motivate.)

Your money is gone, and you do not have any ownership of the vessel. at best you have a possible claim to ownership, but that claim is irrelevant and only effective against any claim the person who wrote that bill of sale may have had unless he guarantees it or insures your claim to title. that is worthless, actually worth negative.

Title is everything. right now ownership is unknown and not yours. if you pay insurance and moorage you become the first in line to become liable for any problems, and there could be many expensive problems. example vessel breaks free of mooring, collides with another vessel and someone is injured, or vessel sinks, and oil in bilge contaminates water, wreckage required to be removed by authorities, all this and you have no rightof ownership and therefore cannot move the vessel any authority on the high sea will want to see registration first to prove it belongs to you. If you take the vessel away from its location, you could actually be stealing it from the registered owner!
You could very well be breaking the law just by boarding it at its mooring if it is not in distress or blocking right of way. It goes on and on and gets WORSE

Just my take. I don't know squat about boats, but I am quite opinionated.

[hellosailor]

aaron- You will have to explore the Florida Statutes, which are all online and generally well indexed. Florida treats (this kind of) boats as motor vehicles, which means they are titled property. Except, it is possible to have normally titled property that is untitled or has a defect or missing title. Florida probably requires a good title to register the boat, but that's where you have to check the laws. Don't just ask the DMV folks, sometimes they get it wrong. Ask them for the statute number and check the law. There is also usually a process to deal with lost or defective titles, such as getting a signed bill of sale (and sometimes, when those don't have to be notarized, they've been "discovered" as needed) which has little risk UNLESS the boat really has been stolen, etc. along the way. This is very much a case of following the laws, and the laws usually DO provide a recourse, but you need specifics, not "what people remember" or what people know was the law--a year or three ago. Laws change. The advice to go after the broker is also important. Boats are NORMALLY titled property and if that boat could not be titled (state or USCG, no difference there) then that is the kind of material defect the broker should have disclosed. Or, perhaps Florida allows a sale as "junk salvage or other" in which case no title goes with it. You might want to read your sale contract very closely to be sure about that chance too. About the sales tax: Great White Chief who sits in Tallahassee speaks with forked tongue. Same as the other ones. If the law says you have 90 days to remit the sales tax--either send in a bank check, by certified return receipt mail, or get a formal letter from the tax department saying that you do NOT have to pay the sales tax in the normally required timely manner, i.e. no tax due until and unless the vessel title is transferred to you. Two separate problems to deal with, and they'll both come back to bite you if not done to the letter of the law.

[Island Time O25]

What about a HIN check through the state LE database?

The last boat I purchased came with a weird new "homemade" HIN than the one stamped on the hull. Other than the shot engine this may have been the biggest turn off for any potential buyer. I checked with the state boat registering authority (surprisingly not the RMV but state's equivalent of EPA) and they said that it checks out OK. So I went ahead and purchased and had no problem registering it. Since this may become an issue in another state, should I decide to move, I'd like to re-document her as per "simplified chain of title" procedure, if possible, to avoid future issues with other states. Will keep you posted on the outcome of that.

Oh and one other interesting note. MA, requires a pencil rub of the HIN when submitting reg. application. Obviously my rubbed HIN was not the same as the HIN on the seller's title but this never became an issue. I was really surprised as I was ready to deal with it knowing our state's bureaucratic zeal.

[nematon785]

I think it is pointless to try to establish chain of title or title the boat with a new entity (states or offshore etc.). This is something the Broker must do to legally sell the boat. Not your place or responsibility to even attempt.

The boat was never actually sold. The Broker clearly did not have any more right to attempt to transfer ownership with a bill of sale than he had right to transfer ownership of the Brooklyn Bridge with a bill of sale.

If somehow the sales contract transfers responsibility to you through some obtuse or clever language, it is very likely to be either null and void, or against the law. Just because the contract says it is your problem does not mean it really is, a contract cannot trump the law IIRC.

I agree it is time to review your contract in very close detail. Likely it is worth less than toilet paper, but it may have some agreement in there somewhere exposing you to some details. especially any irritating bits about refunds being issued after 90 days, or something that states no ownership transfer of a vessel, rather you paid money to some guy to talk nice to you and give you an example bill of sale for your own boilerplate files-- and a vessel is not even part of the transaction...

A contract is merely an agreement. you did agree to something.

Broker is a dirtbag.

[Dave22q]

If you boat was ever registered in Fl and you know the numbers you should be able to get the DMV to honor your bill of sale. Otherwise advise the broker that the sale is not complete without title documentation so he can choose between a lawsuit, a full refund, or getting the necessary documentation. It might be worth a hundred or so to have a lawyer letterhead on your demand.

[hellosailor]

I can buy a $25 number punch set at Horror Fright, stop at the craft store for a box of plaster or hardening clay, and voila, yessir, I can make a pencil rubbing of any HIN you want. Any special color paper you want that on? #2 lead pencil OK, or something special in a color maybe? What is the saying, locks are only there to keep out honest men?

[Cadence]

I wish he would post both the Broker's name and boat yard, Nothing derogatory has to be said.

[CapnBazza]

What Ann said. 👏

[rbyham]

This is suspicious. It is true you cannot have simultaneous CG and State registration and if a boat is already CG documented you need to either get a letter of deletion or redocument it. But being out of documentation the CG will demand clear unbroken ownership info. So my guess is this broker did not have the right to sell the boat meaning either ownership info was lost or boat was stolen. Hope you get satisfaction but my guess is it will require legal help... BTW what type of boat and rough dollar figure are we talking about if you dont mind...

[rbyham]

BTW, don't believe people who tell you the documentation process is difficult to navigate nor that they are too backed up. It is true they are backed up on full documentation but they get you a provisional documentation in timely manner so who cares when the full documentation arrives. Plus you can use the boat on the BOS while waiting at least in SC waters. My experience tells me there is no need to pay a documentation fee of hundreds of dollars. Re-documenting a purchased recreational vessel will incur fees of like $80...

[markpierce]

Seems like it would be good to research a boat's documentation/registration/title before committing to buy a previously-owned boat.

[nematon785]

This is sadly a perfect example to warn others here on the forum to be very careful about clear ownership transfer before handing money over.

Now I have a question: Does title insurance exist for boats? now I feel dumb, but I really would like to know. Not sure if a hijack of the thread. apology in advance. Some purchases far exceed real estate value, and it would seem quite a good policy, and required by the bank if a loan exists. I really know very little, and it shows, but a chance to learn exists here.

Also I would like to say I feel for the original poster, and I am sorry for what you are going through. maybe it is a simple matter of the broker calling previous owner for bill of sale blah blah blah, even then hassle...

[gts1544]

Always insist that the BILL OF SALE be on the official USCG bill of sale form available from the USCG website under FORMS. I purchased a boat that had been documented in the past, but had been through several owners, undocumented, prior to my purchase. I had, in some cases, rudimentary bills of sale establishing chain of title, but these bills of sale did not meet USCG requirements. The USCG has a waiver process to allow these ineligible bills of sale to be used to establish "chain of ownership". Thank goodness that my process occurred prior to the USCG fee increases, yet it still cost me over $100. Today?? George

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by rbyham

This is suspicious. It is true you cannot have simultaneous CG and State registration and if a boat is already CG documented you need to either get a letter of deletion or redocument it. But being out of documentation the CG will demand clear unbroken ownership info. So my guess is this broker did not have the right to sell the boat meaning either ownership info was lost or boat was stolen. Hope you get satisfaction but my guess is it will require legal help... BTW what type of boat and rough dollar figure are we talking about if you dont mind...

AFAIK you can register a documented boat in most states you just can't title it simultaneously in most (all?). Two different animals titling and registration. Also Maine is a non-title state and when buying Maine registered boat to title it, at least in MA, one needs a letter from ME registration office confirming this fact.

MA does not require any registration of documented boats, just the sales tax if it's berthed in MA for more than XX days (don't remember if its either 60 or 90). NH on the other hand requires registration of even documented boats but does not have a sales tax.

And technically, as per initial intent Federal documentation was to keep the boats out of states jurisdiction, including taxes, registrations, etc. But as always the case "when there is a will (to tax) there is a way" and states have muscled in into documented boats with the Feds complicit in that grab by their failure to assert Federal jurisdiction for all documented boats. And since there is no financial incentive for any one boat owner to fight this on 2 fronts (but rather to go around it by picking and choosing the state which most suits them tax/registration wise) this wen unchallenged since it started sometime in the late 80s. I recall talking to a sailing instructor back about 20 years ago who was saying that this state tax grab happened in the late 80s, about 10 years prior and that before that time a documented boat was not taxed by the state either at the point of sale or by the annual excise tax precisely because it was considered out of the state's jurisdictional authority. AFAIK the law has not changed just the states' willingness to push the law aside or to interpret it the way it see fits. And the Federal' gov't's unwillingness to rein in this state's jurisdictional grab.

[belizesailor]

What form was the BOS? Was it on the USCG BOS form?

Was it signed by the actual owner of record at the time?

If yes to both, then I dont think you have a problem. You should just be able to Federally document the boat. Ive done that with a State registered/titled boat with no problem.

If no to the last question, then you dont own the boat and who ever signed it may have comitted a crime...again, lawyer up for better legal advice.