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john61ct · 24-01-2018, 10:01

To be clear I was talking about making decent income, $50/hr a really bottom of the barrel rate, upside whatever the market will bear.

If you're talking about making the sort of income a maid in the suburbs can pull cleaning houses, then yes obviously it gets easier without big hoops to jump through.

Average income these days is well above $50K, let's shoot for at least that right? We do have that boat shaped hole in the water to look after!

**Jammer** · 24-01-2018, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbodine88

My question how viable is such an idea?

Some good posts upthread.

A fact to consider is that compliance with immigration, employment, and tax regulations is problematic. While there are situations where everyone looks the other way because of small scale, someone writing software for hire -- even for an overseas employer -- has to have a work authorization in the country where they perform the work. The employer has to comply with local wage and timekeeping requirements, and both the employer and employee may be liable for local taxes.

If you, as an agency, were able to deal with these difficulties on behalf of both employees and employers, perhaps you would create quite a bit of value. Doing so would, realistically, require permanent staff on the ground in most of the ports.

It is my experience that most employers who hire remote workers to write software pursue markets where they hope to achieve a 10:1 reduction in payroll expenses compared to typical major U.S. cities. As recently as the early 1990s they sent work to Tel Aviv, then by 2000 it was going to Bangalore, then Bejing, then for a while to eastern Europe, and now the trend has sort of cooled off. Reality ends up being closer to 5:1 as wages are driven up over time. This is still enough of a cost savings to overcome the problems with time zone differences, travel, and extra administrative overhead, at least for some projects.

I have noticed a declining interest in the industry, in small office, remote, home office type arrangements. There are skilled individuals who are able to negotiate these arrangements from time to time but it is more the exception than the rule, and usually involves the employee giving up a certain amount of salary and potential for advancement.

Lake-Effect · 24-01-2018, 10:36

If you can milk a niche, through experience and a network that you've built up over years of work, then yes one could probably still make a decent living afloat.

I know one guy currently in the South Seas who does architectural rendering from his boat. Very niche.

But the development field has become a bit tougher to stay in. I'm finding that there's been a fairly substantial shift in the web app market: there's much more activity in newer technologies (the MEAN stack) and more work in data science (aka "big data"), financial technology ("quants"), machine learning and AI, and all of these require more up-to-date education... and the universities are finally delivering trained folks in higher numbers. After 20 years in this field, I'm finding it increasingly hard to stay on the cutting edge. So... it's no longer the easy money it once was, and as i think about winding down, the toughest part is finding a niche where I can still command a premium rate without killing myself.

It's possible to do effective remote development within an Agile process: you have your daily video meetups on Skype or similar, and Google docs, github and BitBucket, and Slack are great tools for communicating and sharing info and work. All of course requiring reliable and fast Internet. My last couple of big contracts ran this way and I worked from home... but in one case the project suffered from not having the majority of the team in one place.

The chances of detection are probably low, but wouldn't there be serious consequences if you were found to be making an income in a foreign country without paying any taxes there?

Long story short: it's not as easy for an older person to hang on in programming, period, so it would likely be even harder to make a serious income afloat, though you could probably still make a nice supplement, depending on the demand for your specialty.

[on review... I'm in agreement with Jammer]

michaelratinter · 24-01-2018, 19:17

I'm a C/C++ embedded systems programmer. Sign me up!

hzcruiser · 25-01-2018, 00:14

There are also lots of ideas (and cautions) in other threads on CF that cover working while sailing in great detail.

Check them out.

As mentioned, there is already a plethora of websites offering "remote gurus" for any particular field. Setting up yet another one would be rather difficult. Might be easier to sign up with one of them and find your programming niche.

What certainly helps to get new customers would be your own website/blog where you can "show off" your talents in your niche. Then people might contact you directly and you can cut out the middle-man.

Good luck and please, keep us posted how you fare.

Island Time O25 · 25-01-2018, 01:36

Caribbean gov't run sites are full of job ads for IT work. IMO it would make sense to create an agency which would connect those positions with the programmers, QAs, etc. Sort of like crew staffing agencies in major ports. Would have to have some sort of legal staff though to navigate all the rules and regs re: employment, work visas, etc. This may be the prohibitive cost factor unless that too is some cruiser-attorney's part time work.

And while on the subject. Why limit such agency to IT? There are tons of other specialties which are constantly in demand in less developed areas - medicine, law, tech repairs, etc. This can be "uber" of each such specialty. Just need to work out legal and cultural kinks.

Davidhoy · 25-01-2018, 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelratinter

I'm a C/C++ embedded systems programmer. Sign me up!

Maybe we can start our own "offshore" embedded systems team! Literally offshore ;-)

ReMetau · 25-01-2018, 07:14

I work remotely as a 1099 from the Caribbean as a Solution Architect. I specialize in the software that I work with, and I only take contracts that allow me to work remotely. My client base is usually government type work which requires a US citizenship so my competition isn't as numerous as the general market. I usually fly to the client site for a week about every month or two. It can be tough and sometimes frustrating dealing with the internet speeds that are available, but I tend to make do.

tbodine88 · 25-01-2018, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

Maybe we can start our own "offshore" embedded systems team! Literally offshore ;-)

Data rates off shore are generally low.
When I did the work I developed on my laptop and uploaded the result at the end of each day for the customer to try out.

When I did development it was for the Antiguan government. With special permission since I am American.

I'm thinking no the rates need not be high based on my spending rate while I was at sea sailing among the carribean islands.

Thanks for the thoughts. Still looking for some good ideas on how to make this work.

Nicor · 27-01-2018, 05:30

The problem with that idea is your going to be in competition with the 100k others that are already doing that and the rate they charge is essentially pennies.

About 80% of those doing that, do have the skills.

Back in 2005 thru 2010 (about) I worked out of web site called oDesk.
oDesk was bought out and the new place is not worth working through,
at least using my term and conditions for payment of services.

I now rely on past clients, where someone they know needs some programming done for whatever.

here it is oDesk is now Upwork https://www.upwork.com/

akopac · 27-01-2018, 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jammer

Some good posts upthread.

A fact to consider is that compliance with immigration, employment, and tax regulations is problematic. While there are situations where everyone looks the other way because of small scale, someone writing software for hire -- even for an overseas employer -- has to have a work authorization in the country where they perform the work. The employer has to comply with local wage and timekeeping requirements, and both the employer and employee may be liable for local taxes.

If you, as an agency, were able to deal with these difficulties on behalf of both employees and employers, perhaps you would create quite a bit of value. Doing so would, realistically, require permanent staff on the ground in most of the ports.

It is my experience that most employers who hire remote workers to write software pursue markets where they hope to achieve a 10:1 reduction in payroll expenses compared to typical major U.S. cities. As recently as the early 1990s they sent work to Tel Aviv, then by 2000 it was going to Bangalore, then Bejing, then for a while to eastern Europe, and now the trend has sort of cooled off. Reality ends up being closer to 5:1 as wages are driven up over time. This is still enough of a cost savings to overcome the problems with time zone differences, travel, and extra administrative overhead, at least for some projects.

I have noticed a declining interest in the industry, in small office, remote, home office type arrangements. There are skilled individuals who are able to negotiate these arrangements from time to time but it is more the exception than the rule, and usually involves the employee giving up a certain amount of salary and potential for advancement.

I would think a person anchored out using WiFi from shore on a US documented boat is considered working in US?

tbodine88 · 27-01-2018, 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by akopac

I would think a person anchored out using WiFi from shore on a US documented boat is considered working in US?

Only if you are in international waters. Usually wifi will not teach that far. The us national waters go out 12 miles. Mexico claims 200 miles.
Usually any place where anchoring is a possibility is claimed by someone. Plus any naval vessel who finds you may cause you some problems if they feel like it.
It's best to have some idea about the local laws. As well as having friends in the local government

Art_B · 27-01-2018, 10:26

I like the idea of starting a new agency to manage projects. I wrote one response to this but it never got posted, probably because I included my company's website. The problem with sites like Upwork and Fiverr is small companies like mine don't have anyone who knows what kind of person to hire. We know what the end result needs to look like, but need a project manager to say, OK I need this person to work on this stuff, and someone else to work on this other stuff. It sounds like there is quite a bit of interest here, and I was about to reach out to this forum for offers before I hired another company I've been looking at.
Now that I've thought about it some more, I see a lot of similarities between what my company (industrial parts and equipment supply with remote workers all over the US) is needing, and what a distributed IT agency would need.

A customer portal. (website)
A worker portal with a way to say "I'm available" and projects etc.
A database
ERP/CRM
Probably more.

If you all want to put together a group of founding partners I can get my business attorney to look at it and recommend the best way to proceed. Then my company can be your first customer.

hellosailor · 27-01-2018, 10:46

Tom, there have been "agencies" placing contractors that way for at least 35 years. The problems are that first, the agency takes a cut, one way or another. And second, you've got global competition these days. If you're a really talented programmer you can still make a good buck from clients who may want that. But since the 90's and cheap communications, a lot of "remote" contracting has gone to places like India and China and eastern europe. All of which have great programmers, often fluent in English, and all willing to work for lower wages.
A lot of the "telecommuting" and remote contracting sites are unknown outside of their industries, but they are out there. I don't think you're suggesting anything new. Some of the guilds [sic] or professional associations probably can refer you to them.