Make Money While Cruising - List

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by SVCalliroe

Same situation. IMO you don't need broadband if you can work locally and then push your code when done. Then there's emails. Sure, "git clone" might be painful...
Haven't done that but that's my plan once I have my boat. Then I also want to have my SaaS offering.

There's still the fact that we would be working from abroad and that's illegal. Haven't figured that out yet.

in what way will you be working from abroad illegally? Are you referring to the local laws or laws back home?

If you are concerned about local laws where you're traveling I believe if the work you do is effected back in your home country, even if you are physically located in another country you are not considered by that country to be working that country or violating their local work laws. Even if that isn't the case you could be so under the radar that it would be almost impossible to be found out.

[OceanoMare]

Originally Posted by skipmac

in what way will you be working from abroad illegally? Are you referring to the local laws or laws back home?

If you are concerned about local laws where you're traveling I believe if the work you do is effected back in your home country, even if you are physically located in another country you are not considered by that country to be working that country or violating their local work laws. Even if that isn't the case you could be so under the radar that it would be almost impossible to be found out.

You are physically located in a country, to avoid paying taxes there you will at least require a business VISA as opposed to a travel one. Try to go to the US or Canada with a travel VISA (or try to come to the EU if you are American) and do some work, see what happens if they catch you.

Sure I could easily stay under the radar, I'd just be a dude typing on a laptop on his boat, but being under the radar doesn't make it legal.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by SVCalliroe

Same situation. IMO you don't need broadband if you can work locally and then push your code when done. Then there's emails. Sure, "git clone" might be painful...
Haven't done that but that's my plan once I have my boat. Then I also want to have my SaaS offering.

There's still the fact that we would be working from abroad and that's illegal. Haven't figured that out yet.

Just curious. Why would working in IT be illegal if you did the work from abroad?

[mausgras]

There are almost as many definitions on this site of "working abroad" as job descriptions. The general opinion is that even if you accept an online job, from a client abroad, and paid into an overseas bank account if you work on the assignment in a foreign country then you need a work permit for that country.
There was a recent crack down in Thailand on models without work permits who fly into the country for a photoshoot for a foreign source.
My question is Then what about the genuine tourist who replies to a work related email while on holiday in a foreign country. Is this not a case of law out of date with technology

Sent from my SM-J700F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[jeanathon]

Originally Posted by SVCalliroe

You are physically located in a country, to avoid paying taxes there you will at least require a business VISA as opposed to a travel one. Try to go to the US or Canada with a travel VISA (or try to come to the EU if you are American) and do some work, see what happens if they catch you.

Sure I could easily stay under the radar, I'd just be a dude typing on a laptop on his boat, but being under the radar doesn't make it legal.

If you are being paid in that countries currency... if you are being paid into your home country bank account, and you are paying taxes on that money to your home country then you are good. USA is one of the only countries that taxes the money you make in another country in another currency.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by mausgras

There are almost as many definitions on this site of "working abroad" as job descriptions. The general opinion is that even if you accept an online job, from a client abroad, and paid into an overseas bank account if you work on the assignment in a foreign country then you need a work permit for that country.
There was a recent crack down in Thailand on models without work permits who fly into the country for a photoshoot for a foreign source.
My question is Then what about the genuine tourist who replies to a work related email while on holiday in a foreign country. Is this not a case of law out of date with technology

Sent from my SM-J700F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I travel a great deal. At the moment by airline. Ive just returned home which is outside of the USA, after a 2 month business trip through Europe and parts of the mid east. I work on my laptop and phone all the time. From cafes or my hotel room. So how the heck are they going to stop international travelers from doing work on their computers and phones. I do think your model example has absolutely no relationship to IT workers. I could be in the BVI and working for a USA company and there is nothing the BVI can do. Unless they hack my computer. But doing online or work over the phone is not taking jobs from the country I'm in port from so there is no issue for that country. But it I went assure and offered my services to local businesses then that is a totally another story.

Bottom line is I can work from any airport, any sea port or from sitting atop a tree anywhere and not be in violation of any enforceable law. If it was unlawful than i suppose business hotels and airports would have to block wi-fi as it is being used for illegal work activity.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by mausgras

The general opinion is that even if you accept an online job, from a client abroad, and paid into an overseas bank account if you work on the assignment in a foreign country then you need a work permit for that country.

I'm not sure where this "General Opinion" came from, but from what I have seen it is Bogus.

[Bertie68]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Bottom line is I can work from any airport, any sea port or from sitting atop a tree anywhere and not be in violation of any enforceable law. If it was unlawful than i suppose business hotels and airports would have to block wi-fi as it is being used for illegal work activity.

It looks some countries are pickier than others at this respect. When I worked in Poland for a big corp years ago, even the execs that came for a week had to get a temporary work permit and carry on with all associated paperwork, as this was considered working within the country's territory. However, I've never heard of such a case i.e. in Spain, only for genuine expats that stay for at least some months or years and have a contract with a local branch of the company.

Anyway, as most jobs today involve just processing information in one way or another, and that can be done with no physical attachment, it's almost impossible to tell whether you're working or not...

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by SVCalliroe

You are physically located in a country, to avoid paying taxes there you will at least require a business VISA as opposed to a travel one. Try to go to the US or Canada with a travel VISA (or try to come to the EU if you are American) and do some work, see what happens if they catch you.

Sure I could easily stay under the radar, I'd just be a dude typing on a laptop on his boat, but being under the radar doesn't make it legal.

I am no lawyer but to the best of my understanding, while traveling outside your home country, doing work for a company or your own business back at home that does not involve business, sales, services or any kind of transactions in the country you're visiting is not illegal in that country.

I was international sales manager for a US company for several years and was in Europe several times each year visiting clients and attending trade shows. I always declared I was on business when arriving: UK, Ireland, Germany, Poland, Israel, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain. The only questions ever asked, "Are you carrying samples or products to deliver to anyone here?". I was very clear that my business involved sales to companies in the country I was visiting and was never questioned at all.

When traveling foreign on vacation I conducted myself the same way and still no issues.

Every hotel had wifi and business centers with internet and computers available that were openly advertised as there to serve the business needs of foreign travelers. I was on email and telephone conduction business almost constantly and had a single question.

Of the countries I visited the only one that involved any red tape was Brasil. For there it required a few days and a special visa if traveling for business. No restrictions on trying to buy, sell or conduct any sort of business with Brazilian companies, just needed to fill in the forms and wait for the visa.

[OceanoMare]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

If you are being paid in that countries currency... if you are being paid into your home country bank account, and you are paying taxes on that money to your home country then you are good. USA is one of the only countries that taxes the money you make in another country in another currency.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Nope. If you are a US citizen in Italy, working for a US company and being paid in USD in your US bank account, you must be on a work VISA (max 90 days I think, you don't require a VISA per se which makes it harder to explain) or you will be evading Italian taxes. That's a crime and it's punishable by law.

[OceanoMare]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I am no lawyer but to the best of my understanding, while traveling outside your home country, doing work for a company or your own business back at home that does not involve business, sales, services or any kind of transactions in the country you're visiting is not illegal in that country.

I was international sales manager for a US company for several years and was in Europe several times each year visiting clients and attending trade shows. I always declared I was on business when arriving: UK, Ireland, Germany, Poland, Israel, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain. The only questions ever asked, "Are you carrying samples or products to deliver to anyone here?". I was very clear that my business involved sales to companies in the country I was visiting and was never questioned at all.

When traveling foreign on vacation I conducted myself the same way and still no issues.

Every hotel had wifi and business centers with internet and computers available that were openly advertised as there to serve the business needs of foreign travelers. I was on email and telephone conduction business almost constantly and had a single question.

Of the countries I visited the only one that involved any red tape was Brasil. For there it required a few days and a special visa if traveling for business. No restrictions on trying to buy, sell or conduct any sort of business with Brazilian companies, just needed to fill in the forms and wait for the visa.

There are agreements between EU and USA so neither citizens require a VISA to go to the other side, but you implicitly are under a business travel visa, and you are not the business owner. I would be owner of a SaaS startup.

The whole IT thing is making laws obsolete, but a law enforcement agency not being able to enforce the laws doesn't make the thing legal. Sure I could stay moored in Florida with a visa waiver for weeks while working on my startup, and there's nothing they could do about that, but I would be evading US taxes.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by SVCalliroe

There are agreements between EU and USA so neither citizens require a VISA to go to the other side, but you implicitly are under a business travel visa, and you are not the business owner. I would be owner of a SaaS startup.

The whole IT thing is making laws obsolete, but a law enforcement agency not being able to enforce the laws doesn't make the thing legal. Sure I could stay moored in Florida with a visa waiver for weeks while working on my startup, and there's nothing they could do about that, but I would be evading US taxes.

If you were working on your computer in Miami for a business doing business and sales in a foreign country you are not doing business in Miami. You are inventing a problem that does not exist. Like I have said if you take the logic of what you are saying then every person in a transit lounge in an international airport doing work on their computer is breaking the law. And of course they are not. What a lot of nonsense. Can I ask what country you are from. I find people from some countries have a different way of thinking logically and processing information.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

If you were working on your computer in Miami for a business doing business and sales in a foreign country you are not doing business in Miami. You are inventing a problem that does not exist. Like I have said if you take the logic of what you are saying then every person in a transit lounge in an international airport doing work on their computer is breaking the law. And of course they are not. What a lot of nonsense. Can I ask what country you are from. I find people from some countries have a different way of thinking logically and processing information.

Lay odds he's from the US of A.. classic paranoia..

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by SVCalliroe

There are agreements between EU and USA so neither citizens require a VISA to go to the other side, but you implicitly are under a business travel visa, and you are not the business owner. I would be owner of a SaaS startup.

The whole IT thing is making laws obsolete, but a law enforcement agency not being able to enforce the laws doesn't make the thing legal. Sure I could stay moored in Florida with a visa waiver for weeks while working on my startup, and there's nothing they could do about that, but I would be evading US taxes.

I have been a business owner in the past and I am again now. What seems to be the difference is I (and I think most others commenting on this thread) am looking at the situation based on travelers that are visiting other countries where your focus seems to be more towards long term stays that may fall under the definition of residency.

Never the less, I think GoingWalkabout puts it well. If you are "visiting" another country and conducting business (for your own company or as an employee for a company) that is based in your home country and have no business entity established in the country you're visiting then for most countries that I know, you are not violating local laws.

If that would be against the law then how is it I could travel to all the countries in western Europe, including Italy, opening declare I am there to sell my goods to companies in those countries and not be violating the local laws?

[OceanoMare]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

If you were working on your computer in Miami for a business doing business and sales in a foreign country you are not doing business in Miami. You are inventing a problem that does not exist. Like I have said if you take the logic of what you are saying then every person in a transit lounge in an international airport doing work on their computer is breaking the law. And of course they are not. What a lot of nonsense. Can I ask what country you are from. I find people from some countries have a different way of thinking logically and processing information.

Since I'm about to relo close to its border, here, this is Canada:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=436&top=16

"You do not need a work permit to carry out business activities related to your job back home, such as meeting clients of your company or visiting job sites. However, if you plan to carry out secretarial, managerial, technical or production activities or stay longer than six months in Canada, you have to apply for a work permit."

Isn't writing code technical or production? I think it is. So if I sail to, say, Vancouver, can I work from my boat?

Not sure how to answer the where from question. I'm originally Italian, lived (not traveled, actually lived) for years in Denmark and Ireland. About to move to the US. Pick one.