Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 07-03-2014, 16:31   #811
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Boat: Still Searching
Posts: 162
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Okay. Stated that way, a 4% risk for a 14% gain. Sounds pretty good to me.

That's what I've been trying to say. 14% target returns on 4% risk is great.

But 100% returns on 75% risk is like saying 5.3% returns on 4% risk. Doesn't sound quite so appealing in comparison, right?
__________________

__________________
Certeza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 16:39   #812
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank_f View Post
+1 there.

My company matches my pension contributions and invests it with a money market manager. After almost 15 years I have about a 1 increase over the contributions. The poor returns didn't stop them from taking their fees every year and it doesn't seem like I can move the money to another firm. I could have done better with a savings account.
While my history is not that bad I sure am pissed at the people that have handled my money over the last 30 years. If I'd had somebody decent for that, I'd be out there. Now I don't know if I can or not.
__________________

__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 16:43   #813
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,862
Images: 4
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certeza View Post
That's what I've been trying to say. 14% target returns on 4% risk is great.

But 100% returns on 75% risk is like saying 5.3% returns on 4% risk. Doesn't sound quite so appealing in comparison, right?
I understand there's different ways of comparing this stuff my problem is how I wrapped my head around it. If I took the entire million and got lucky. The 75% risk if this is our example and if I'm reading it correctly, then I'd have liked millions right away. Obviously, that's too much risk. But looking at a small portion and taken the risk and then making the profits would certainly makes it a lot brighter.

I'm not much good at math.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 16:46   #814
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London, Ontario
Boat: MacGregor 25', Columbia 26 Classic
Posts: 347
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certeza View Post
Yeah, not a big fan of that type of manager. IMO, charging a 1/2% management fee to do nothing and only get your clients 1% annual is robbery.

If a professional is gonna charge, he should be offering target returns that are above what the client could do themselves on the same level of risk.
Annual? I wish.

From what I can see on their quarterly statements, the company and I have put $30000 into this account over the years that now stands at $32000. So a $2000 gain for approximately 15 years of investment. This is precisely why this is such an interesting thread for me.

I have my Complete Turtle Trader ebook as well as Living on the Margin by the Bumfuzzle folks and a slack weekend where there isn't much I can do on the boats anyhow. Firing up the coffee pot as we speak.
__________________
frank_f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 16:57   #815
Registered User
 
Cormorant's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catskill Mountains (too far from the sea)
Boat: 31' homebuilt Michalak-designed Cormorant "Sea Fever"
Posts: 1,938
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

For Frank and Therapy and anyone else interested, there was an earlier thread about MRCI, which walks you through it a bit:

Making a Living while Cruising

I gave it a try and we're up $50,000 on an initial investment of $20,000, after less than one year. So what Delfin says is correct -- it just works.

What Certeza says is probably also correct -- there's risk, and drawdowns, and crazy volatility. . . . Especially for those of us who don't follow Delfin's advice to hew precisely to MRCI's enter and exit dates, and one of each spread. I tend to try to cherry-pick, and double up or triple up on promising spreads -- which basically leads to higher highs and lower lows. I'm now leaning toward trying to be more programatic about it. Not worth overthinking it.

It helps that I'm not cruising full-time. Just building the cruising kitty for our summer cruises and eventual long-term voyages once the kids are off to college. . . . But I think I could make it all work with from the Bahamas all winter, easy.
__________________
Cormorant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 17:03   #816
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Boat: Still Searching
Posts: 162
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
I understand there's different ways of comparing this stuff my problem is how I wrapped my head around it. If I took the entire million and got lucky. The 75% risk if this is our example and if I'm reading it correctly, then I'd have liked millions right away. Obviously, that's too much risk. But looking at a small portion and taken the risk and then making the profits would certainly makes it a lot brighter.



I'm not much good at math.

Problem is that you run into a leveraging problem.

Let's assume that you found a program with average 14% returns and 4% risk. So you decide to do your idea of using only $40K and leveraging it 25 times to get to 350% returns and 100% risk. Unfortunately for your plan, the capital requirements in most programs are going to be such that it isn't possible to leverage 25 times in the small account.
__________________
Certeza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 17:24   #817
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Boat: Still Searching
Posts: 162
Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cormorant View Post
For Frank and Therapy and anyone else interested, there was an earlier thread about MRCI, which walks you through it a bit:

Making a Living while Cruising

I gave it a try and we're up $50,000 on an initial investment of $20,000, after less than one year. So what Delfin says is correct -- it just works.

What Certeza says is probably also correct -- there's risk, and drawdowns, and crazy volatility. . . . Especially for those of us who don't follow Delfin's advice to hew precisely to MRCI's enter and exit dates, and one of each spread. I tend to try to cherry-pick, and double up or triple up on promising spreads -- which basically leads to higher highs and lower lows. I'm now leaning toward trying to be more programatic about it. Not worth overthinking it.

It helps that I'm not cruising full-time. Just building the cruising kitty for our summer cruises and eventual long-term voyages once the kids are off to college. . . . But I think I could make it all work with from the Bahamas all winter, easy.

To be clear, nobody here is saying that MRCI system hasn't produced consistent returns. In that respect it is very commendable.

What some of us are saying is that according to their historical performance, in the suggested $40k acct the trader should expect periodic downward swings of as much as 75% of acct value.

That is considered insanely volatile by normal standards and by definition a program like that isn't very scalable because if you built the acct up to something like $1MM you might login at some point to be back down to $250k. Losses like that in the course of a month or so are devastating to most people .
__________________
Certeza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 17:30   #818
Registered User
 
Cormorant's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catskill Mountains (too far from the sea)
Boat: 31' homebuilt Michalak-designed Cormorant "Sea Fever"
Posts: 1,938
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

I know you're much more quantitative about this than I could ever be, but it all seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.

I've never encountered an investment so dramatically profitable before. If periodic awful downturns are the price to pay, that's fine . . . so long as it all recovers and powers onward eventually, which so far seems to be the case.
__________________
Cormorant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 18:59   #819
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Boat: Still Searching
Posts: 162
Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cormorant View Post
I know you're much more quantitative about this than I could ever be, but it all seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.

I've never encountered an investment so dramatically profitable before. If periodic awful downturns are the price to pay, that's fine . . . so long as it all recovers and powers onward eventually, which so far seems to be the case.

Fair enough. Only you know your risk tolerance.

For everyone else...

Imagine a friend gave you a tip about an investment manager who'd gotten him good returns. You call him and he says his program is pretty aggressive but consistently profitable. He charges 1.5% of your account each year in fees.

You open up a $40,000 acct with him in January. He sends you a statement in March and your acct balance is up to $50k and you paid him $150 in fees. You're happy with the results.

Three more months go by and you open your statement to find that your account balance has lost $40k, dropping all the way down to $10,000 and he still charged you another $150 in fees.

Honestly ask yourself what your reaction would be. Would you shrug your shoulders and say, "oh well, he'll get it back"? Or, would you be picking up the phone to figure out what crap is going on and thinking about closing your acct with him?

If the latter sounds correct, you shouldn't consider trading the MRCI system in a $40k acct. It is outside your risk tolerance. It should be obvious, but there is literally no difference between the above scenario and trading your own $40k account in that system, except in your own acct you did all the work and still paid the fees.
__________________
Certeza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 19:40   #820
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 1,378
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cormorant View Post
I know you're much more quantitative about this than I could ever be, but it all seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.

I've never encountered an investment so dramatically profitable before. If periodic awful downturns are the price to pay, that's fine . . . so long as it all recovers and powers onward eventually, which so far seems to be the case.
Which of course is the point.

The risk of an investment should be understood before committing capital - no one disputes that. Nor should anyone invest money in any non guaranteed investment that they can't afford to lose without catastrophe. By the same token they should not be deceived by someone who tells them that the estimation and management of risk is somehow a precise science that resides in the hands of a few. If it pleases some to assume that those of us who have found seasonal spread trading following Moore's analysis to be absurdly easy and profitable must therefore have no conception of risk, then please, blather on and keep explaining why planes can't fly. But the entire point of the approach of Moore, which I have attempted to detail, is that they do a historic analysis of the ups and downs of a particular trade over 15 years and publish the results. You can look at that analysis, and you can see what the worst case scenario was on a historic basis before you trade. You can look at how the current price action for recent months compares to 5, 10, 15 year averages and make an informed decision of whether to place the trade or not. Risk management is a critical part of investing, but it is also worth looking at the frequency with which realized risk manifests itself as a downturn. In Moore's case, it's less than 5% of the time that a draw down in capital would exceed current years profitability. Would that be a painful draw down when it occurs? Sure. So if you can't handle bad news 1 year out of 20, don't invest in spreads. Pretty simple, really, even if it is certainly possible to make simple things look complicated if it suits you.
__________________
http://delfin.talkspot.com
When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to appeal to another cause.
- Ulmann's Razor
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 21:06   #821
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,006
Images: 5
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Just thought I would post the original post #1 to ground the thread rather than 4 people debating markets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agility View Post
I'd like to create an exhaustive list of how folks who are deeply passionate about cruising have also found ways to make money while cruising.

Here a quick list to start us off:

1. Writing books
2. Editing magazines
3. Charter own boat
4. Software development

Let's try not to include, sail a while then work a while, but how can you make money while sailing.

Keep the list going so the next idea is number 6.
What I have found down here in Mexico on the morning net are 2 or 3 people needing their inflatables repaired. There is a guy here that pulled in years ago with little intention of stopping and repaired a few inflatables for the cruising fleet. Apparently, he's been here for years now and actually rented a building near the airport for his business.
I'm sure to do this off your boat, you would need little more than a few different types of fabric and a few glues.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 21:22   #822
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 260
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

"Ground the thread"? Why? This is one of the few promising money making ideas generated.
__________________
jostalli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 21:27   #823
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,006
Images: 5
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Oh...how easily we forget and repeat our mistakes...
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 21:35   #824
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 260
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Oh...how easily we forget and repeat our mistakes...
I'm not sure I follow. I know it's been discussed at length before but that doesn't mean it's not viable or worthwhile. Why try to squash the conversation by offering an idea of how to make money by fixing inflatables?
__________________
jostalli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 22:04   #825
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,006
Images: 5
Re: Make Money While Cruising - List

I was talking about the markets in the early 2000's...remember? The OP, I believe, was looking for something a little more tangible. Perhaps he can chime back in with an opinion.
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising and the Coming Storm ~ Recession, Depression, Climate Change, Peak Oil jtbsail Off Topic Forum 162 13-10-2015 12:17
Cruising with money... elliebell Dollars & Cents 54 18-12-2011 18:09
Does Cruising Make You Haelthier ? Domo Liveaboard's Forum 41 23-10-2011 00:19
Route Properties, Missing Functions James Baines OpenCPN 13 13-07-2011 04:31


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.