Is it a Dog-Eat-Dog world?

[rockDAWG]

The professional delivery captains certainly have their value. They expect to get paid for their service for whatever it may be. However I have noticed many of these professional skippers/captains refuse to pay their crews. They expect the experienced crews pay their own way to and from the boat on their own dimes, and come on board to work for free.

I heard many delivery captains advised the boat owner that they only need to pay him and he would get the free crews for the delivery. At times, he would rather bring the inexperienced crews.

This does not sound right. Why would a professional unwilling to support each other.

[NOLA_sailing]

Supply > Demand

Essentially, there are enough people available that are willing to absorb some of the expenses in order to have the experience of being crew; especially in the tropical belt. They see monetary compensation as just one part of the whole packet. While I am not condoning the practice, I'd be hard pressed to tell a service provider to unnecessarily shrink his profit margin to provide amenities that crew are so willing to forego. These aren't indentured migrant workers; most of these crew are simply adventure seekers who found a way to subsidize their wanderlust.

[rockDAWG]

Originally Posted by NOLA_sailing

Supply > Demand

Essentially, there are enough people available that are willing to absorb some of the expenses in order to have the experience of being crew; especially in the tropical belt. They see monetary compensation as just one part of the whole packet. While I am not condoning the practice, I'd be hard pressed to tell a service provider to unnecessarily shrink his profit margin to provide amenities that crew are so willing to forego. These aren't indentured migrant workers; most of these crew are simply adventure seekers who found a way to subsidize their wanderlust.

I totally understand.

Likewise there are plenty of boat owners want the professional captain move their boat free too. I am NOT talking about amateur crews and adventure seekers.

For those boat owners who are willing to pay $200 to $400 a day to the delivery captain to move their boat, they won't have any problem to pay a few dollar extra to get a couple qualified crews to help on the trip.

[barnakiel]

Whatever works.

When I hire people I pay them. When people come to me and ask for experience miles they pay me.

I would be suspicious if a (professional???) skipper of any big yacht took on inexperienced / non-professional crew on a passage. On any big boat you need at least one extra competent crew, often more.

On a smaller boat just the skipper and maybe one extra HAND will do. It is best if the hand is competent too, just in case the skipper goes blue walkabout while the boat is half way from BVI to New York ...

b.

[Snowpetrel]

I always make sure I have one experienced and trusted crew for deliveries. I am happy to pay their costs and a negotiated percentage. Its well worth it to have someone you can 100% rely on. Any green, or unknown crew are a potential liability and pay all there own costs.

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[garrobito]

Certainly invest in a professional crew is not a waste..
A captain who not want his crew be paid is a cheap one..
I did mostly commercial delivery so have a unqualified crew is not a good point in your resume..

[Celestialsailor]

There was an incident in Santa Cruz, Ca. Where a delivery skipper moved a boat from Southern Ca. on it's way to Oregon. The skipper told the owner that he and two crew people were going to do the delivery and a payment for all three was put in place. The owner saw them off in L.A. (I think), then the skipper immediately dropped the two crew off in Santa Barbara, 100 miles away and paid them a days wage, keeping the rest. I don't know if the crew knew that but I bet they did. One thing is for sure, the owner didn't.
The skipper lived in Santa Cruz, Ca. and pulled in to see his relatives. The next day while motoring out with the auto pilot on, the skipper went down below to make breakfast. Somehow the vessel found it's way to a 3 ft. shelf with it's 6 ft. keel, which promptly sheered off.
I bought some salvaged items from the owner which is how I got the 1st hand information. The owner told me that he asked the skipper if he would have done anything differently. The skipper actually told him, "no".

[Steadman Uhlich]

I am not a delivery skipper, so take my comments below with a splash of saltwater.

However, I have considered this issue and been surprised by the "unprofessional" or "amateur" or "newbie" approach taken by "professional" delivery skippers when using crew members.

My view is the professional delivery captain should compensate his crew, and should have some experienced crew members or a first mate with experience if only two people on the boat. To me, this is the essence of a truly "professional" delivery.

Compensation?
I think the skipper should pay at least the expense of getting home from the destination and all food and some fun money at the destination, regardless of the crew's skill level. I think the skipper should pay more (all transport costs and some daily stipend) for repeat or experienced crew. The skipper expects the same to be paid to him, on top of his daily fee.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Here is another thread in the Archives here on CF that may have additional info or opinions you find interesting on this topic.


Delivery Crew?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-151771-3.html

[Snowpetrel]

My take on this is that I am charging the owner for two experienced crew. I personally think this is prudent for safety. I am happy to singlehand my own boats, with no time presures and with known systems and a trusted boat, but not other people's boats with many unknowns. More than two isnt really needed on most boats as long as there is some form of self steering. If no self steering then the price goes up to compensate for the extra work involved or the time for me to set up my own system.

So if two people is enough for safety why should the owner pay costs for more? Why should I lose money because someone wants to come for a ride.

That person if unknown and inexperienced will probably end up seasick, prehaps needing to be flown home from some small port. They can't really be trusted to take a watch alone except in perfect conditions. And all weather decisions need to be weighed with the consideration of the presence of a inexperienced crew aboard.

If I take inexperienced or unknown crew it is only under the conditions that we are working, not playing. Its a job not a holiday, I am the boss and they are only there because I am doing them a favour, and they pay their own way. If they turn out to be useful, things change, but until then they are a liability not an asset and even then when stuff gets nasty the less unknowns the better.

I also far prefer the dynamic of having only two experienced people aboard. Two's company, three's a crowd is often the case.

There is room to move with this, and there are exceptions. Ive taken experienced crews girlfriends. owners, owners freinds, my own girlfreinds etc as additional crew. Sometimes its worked out well. Other times it hasn't. The less unknowns the better!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rockDAWG

I totally understand.

Likewise there are plenty of boat owners want the professional captain move their boat free too. I am NOT talking about amateur crews and adventure seekers.

For those boat owners who are willing to pay $200 to $400 a day to the delivery captain to move their boat, they won't have any problem to pay a few dollar extra to get a couple qualified crews to help on the trip.

Supply and demand as suggested is the reason.

A skipper who charges $800/day for paid crew that may or may not be any better than the volunteer crew when the competition is at$400/day won't stand a chance.

Also with paid crew there is liability and other issues that creep in. I suspect most small time skippers ignore the risk but that doesn't make it go away. A volunteer crew, you can make them sign a waiver and the risk is much less (always a risk but much lower).

[Steadman Uhlich]

Looking back at my previous comment (see below) I think my position may be misunderstood by some members or delivery skippers. I did not write it to offend any delivery skippers who are members here, but simply to express how a boat buyer may see the issue, and how a potential crew member might see it too.

In any profession, there is a spectrum of experience and skill and "professionalism."

At one end of the spectrum there are highly skilled "professionals" who use experienced and skilled crew and they conduct themselves in a professional manner, usually with a fee at the higher levels of the competition.

Some very skilled sailors may be very good at deliveries, and yet not see that as their "profession." Or they may call themselves a "professional" while only doing the deliveries sporadically as a side job. They may be a perfect fit for an owner who needs a boat moved.

On the other end of the spectrum may be others who call themselves "professionals" but may have little experience, little skill, and little in the way of professional crew. They are generally at the lower end of the fee spectrum.

As with so many other services, it really is up to the buyer to beware.

That said, I think ANY delivery skipper is more likely to attract better crew if they pay their expenses.

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I am not a delivery skipper, so take my comments below with a splash of saltwater.

However, I have considered this issue and been surprised by the "unprofessional" or "amateur" or "newbie" approach taken by "professional" delivery skippers when using crew members.

My view is the professional delivery captain should compensate his crew, and should have some experienced crew members or a first mate with experience if only two people on the boat. To me, this is the essence of a truly "professional" delivery.

Compensation?
I think the skipper should pay at least the expense of getting home from the destination and all food and some fun money at the destination, regardless of the crew's skill level. I think the skipper should pay more (all transport costs and some daily stipend) for repeat or experienced crew. The skipper expects the same to be paid to him, on top of his daily fee.

[Kenomac]

As I understand the practice from even the most reputable delivery companies, the crew is unpaid except for an amount paid to the agency for setting things up, because they're (the crew members) building up their delivery hours in order to someday obtain the delivery captain status within the company. More or less an apprenticeship. I don't hear any of them complaining, mostly older or middle aged guys or gals looking for adventure and a possible future part time job.

I don't see anyone taking advantage of anyone under these circumstances. If the crew doesn't like the way it is financially, nobody is forcing them to crew.

[valhalla360]

I believe the premise that PAID crew are more experienced or somehow better is flawed.

Outside of mega yachts (hardly known for the best seamanship), paid crew are going to be hard to keep for intermittent jobs. As soon as they get their sea time in, they are going to want to get their own captains license and be the head honcho supposedly making the big bucks.

So if you do get paid crew, they are likely newbies with less than a year on the water. Many times the free crew will be old salts with years of experience who are just looking for a free trip.

[ranger58sb]

My crew (usually of at least two) is always on call, and I pay them when we're working.


-Chris