Insurance dilemma

[BANUSCUBA]

Hi,

After reading your comments re insurance, I feel you may come up with suggestions. Our boat is made in 1984 in a shipyard in Canada, a strong steel and well maintained Caroff design boat (US flagged). However we can't find any insurance company to make an overseas insurance (not even for 3.liability) without a survey. This is funny, cause we see many boats in terrible conditions which had insurance without a survey.
I guess we just cant find the right company.
Btw, we tried Pantenius US, Turkey and Germany, and none agreed! And we need it urgent since we're in Canary Islands getting prepared for ocean crossing soon.

[psiow]

hah49, I agree with you when it comes to purchasing insurance. Buying is the easiest part .... claiming is HELL ... 99% of the time. But do we have a choice? What I understand, if someone can correct me, is that if you don't have an insurance on your sail boat some boat slip will not allow you into their dock. You need an insurance first. Worst still, if you sail into a foreign port and an insurance is mandatory by their authority, what happens then?

Has anyone experience this or know of friends who has?

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by BANUSCUBA

Hi,

After reading your comments re insurance, I feel you may come up with suggestions. Our boat is made in 1984 in a shipyard in Canada, a strong steel and well maintained Caroff design boat (US flagged). However we can't find any insurance company to make an overseas insurance (not even for 3.liability) without a survey. This is funny, cause we see many boats in terrible conditions which had insurance without a survey.
I guess we just cant find the right company.
Btw, we tried Pantenius US, Turkey and Germany, and none agreed! And we need it urgent since we're in Canary Islands getting prepared for ocean crossing soon.

The survey requirement is because the insuring company is assuming the lions share of the risk for losses (both partial and total). Compound this with the inherent potential dangers of offshore cruising, and you may begin to develop an ideal why there is a survey requirement.

There needs to be surety that the vessel is seaworthy and materially capable of undertaking offshore travel- the survey does this. One may argue that the vessel master is the best arbiter for this; history and actuarial data shows otherwise. A gut feeling does not trump hard data on the material condition of the vessel.

It's expected that the policy will pay should there be a need- having a survey done to assess material condition of the vessel is a small part of the cost of vessel ownership relative to the amount of money the insuring companies pay out for losses.

You can self insure for the value of the hull, and carry liability coverage for the damage you may do to others.

[haha49]

Originally Posted by psiow

hah49, I agree with you when it comes to purchasing insurance. Buying is the easiest part .... claiming is HELL ... 99% of the time. But do we have a choice? What I understand, if someone can correct me, is that if you don't have an insurance on your sail boat some boat slip will not allow you into their dock. You need an insurance first. Worst still, if you sail into a foreign port and an insurance is mandatory by their authority, what happens then?

Has anyone experience this or know of friends who has?

Most places don't ask. If they do want insurance it's liability meaning if you did something then your covered. Say you hit someone elses boat that's what they want coverage for. Most places don't ask. If your boat looks normal and well upkept they don't ask. Have it looking dirty or run down then they ask. It's like cars police target dirty or beater looking cars all the time for insurance. The new looking shiny car blends in. That's how most cops find insurance dodgers. They also look at the person in the car so if your driving a very expensive car and look homeless or like a druggy expect to be pulled over. It's all appearance.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by haha49

Most places don't ask. If they do want insurance it's liability meaning if you did something then your covered. Say you hit someone elses boat that's what they want coverage for. Most places don't ask. If your boat looks normal and well upkept they don't ask. Have it looking dirty or run down then they ask. It's like cars police target dirty or beater looking cars all the time for insurance. The new looking shiny car blends in. That's how most cops find insurance dodgers. They also look at the person in the car so if your driving a very expensive car and look homeless or like a druggy expect to be pulled over. It's all appearance.

My marina requires that I name them in the policy as a third-party and the insurance company has to send them the form. No form, no slip. Also the policy has to have at least (I think) $500k liability. I think there is now a state requirement for liability which now has to include removal of wrecks and clean up of spills. We have had several derelict boats/ships left at anchor and in marinas where the boat just sank in place. So now everyone pays. Mexico requires liability insurance with a Mexican company. I'm sure it varies country by country, but the marinas in Mexico want to see proof of the insurance. Many boatyards will require proof of insurance to have your boat in their yard too.

[Tientos]

Marinas in Darwin Australia require 5million AUD, which requires many foreign flagged vessels to up liability insurance.



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[StuM]

Originally Posted by Tientos

Marinas in Darwin Australia require 5million AUD, which requires many foreign flagged vessels to up liability insurance.

I've never been in a marina in Australia that didn't require me to show a $5 million or $10 million 3rd party cover note.

[psiow]

When arriving into a foreign port, does the local marine authority checks for the boat insurance or the marina are more concern of the insurance?

[Tientos]

Originally Posted by psiow

When arriving into a foreign port, does the local marine authority checks for the boat insurance or the marina are more concern of the insurance?

For most of Australia, it is predominately the marina. However in Queensland all recreational ships more than 15m but less than 35m in length must have an insurance policy that provides A$250,000 for pollution clean up and A$10,000,000 for salvage and wreck removal. Bowsprits and swim platforms are not included in the LOA unlike marinas. This includes visiting yachts.


In SE Asia, the marina is looking for the insurance, but not all of them enforce it. Which is a bugger when you do the right thing and your neighbour doesn't!

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Concept are the underwriters.

Actually, Concept Special Risks are the Managing General Agents. They are the folks who take the claims, fill out the forms, and in general mange the book of business. Technically the underwriter (financial backers) of the policy has remained the same as long as I can remember (or at least as far back as 2003 when I started in this business): Great Lakes Reinsurance . "GLISE" is a German insurance company based in Munich and regulated by Bundesanstalt für Finanzdienstleistungsaufsicht, the Federal Financial Supervisory Authority of Germany. GLISE is a fully owned subsidiary of Munich Re Group and acts as a specialist provider of insurance services and the preferred facilitator of insurance business. It enjoys the same strong rating and financial strength of the Munich Re Group: A+ (Superior) as rated by A.M. Best and AA- (Very strong) by S&P.

I've found that they are fair in their claims payouts. We don't have client's knocking down the doors complaining about claims- they pay out per the policy terms.

RE: Seaworthiness - a large part of that means having an adequate number of crew onboard to maintain a proper watch. It has always been Concept's view that 2 people are able to do that up to 250nm from shore, and once farther offshore than that, three is better. They are very clear about that in the quotes and policy wording. So this policy is not the right one for anyone wanting to cross an ocean double or single-handed.