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Old 29-06-2011, 07:51   #31
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Re: Hybrid electric conversion for a cat

Electric may not be for everybody. Yes, there are some limits that one must be aware of. But, there are ways around those limitations. One way is to have a generator on board if you want. I've always considered my boat first a sailboat and that's my primary propulsion. The motor's I had were always auxilary propulsion systems. My system has been used for much more than just manoevering around a harbor too. I've motored with it for up to six hours or a particularily windless day and it was a quiet six hours of motoring and I was not fatigued from the noise and vibration when I reached my destination. I spend hardly anytime on maintaining the system compared to the diesel and there is no hesitation in using it when I need to because unlike a diesel it's so quiet and in my experiece has been much more reliable than the diesel.
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Old 29-06-2011, 08:15   #32
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Re: Hybrid electric conversion for a cat

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Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
I don't think electric is the way to. Otherwise every manufacturer would be installing them.
So we can finally quit having the anchor debate and just look at what is on the typical boat as it comes from the manufacturer.

Electric motors cost more so they will not be on most boats because they are not needed on the average boat that gets maybe 50-60 hours a year or so on the engine. Most manufacturers don't even put high output alternators on their boats and yet they are pretty important for most cruisers.

Electric propulsion gives you more options at higher cost. Running an electric motor can occur from battery or generator power and the amount of the power can be shared. If you had two generators, for example, you could use both for full power or the larger for cruising power and the smaller for charging batteries or running electrical equipment without running an engine not designed for low power running. While this type of flexibility is not needed by the typical boater or cruiser it might be very useful for some. For these people a hybrid diesel electric system might very well be ideal.

I would seriously consider it on a larger boat with large electrical needs requiring a large generator (or two) and battery bank as well as a propulsion diesel engine. That is not the average cruiser.

There are very few systems that will be perfect for "all" cruisers. This is one of those options that has a select group that can benefit and the rest would not get enough benefits to justify the added expense. It should not be discounted as an option though as many here have so pithily done.

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Old 29-06-2011, 08:54   #33
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Re: Hybrid electric conversion for a cat

Check with Lagoon about why all of their factory 42' hybrids are being converted back to diesels. Lagoon has even footed the bill for many of these conversions, but I know a couple on one 2008 hybrid Lagoon 42 that is having TERRIBLE problems with their electric propulsion, and Lagoon is basically telling them "tough," and they are looking at $15-20k to get the crappy electric motors out and replaced with diesels. According to them, the technology simply doesn't work well enough for their boat to be reliable at all, and their experience has been a nightmare. I wouldn't dream of putting a hybrid electric system like that in my boat.
I know another couple that had a hybrid Lagoon 42 with the same problems. They were able to get Lagoon to assist financially with repowering her with diesels, but they still paid over $6k out of pocket for the conversion. Fact is that if hybrid diesel/electric worked well in sailboats, people wouldn't be removing these propulsion systems in favor of plain, old-fashioned and RELIABLE diesel.
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Old 29-06-2011, 23:30   #34
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Originally Posted by mbianka

Adamante:

I think he's just being mean and trying to make me cry as I silently motor past the fuel dock. But after three years with EP that will never happen. He is right I did make a mistake my 9kw motor is 12 HP.
Heh. I haven't been to a fuel dock in over a year. I SAIL past them . Some of you are misinterpreting my posts. I'm not against anyone's electric motor ideas. I'm just fact checking some technical points about horsepower and expectations.
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Old 30-06-2011, 06:26   #35
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Re: Hybrid Electric Conversion for a Cat

jk,

Then why are Lagoon owners of electric propulsions converting them? Electric is in the future, and possibly soon.

There's a 30ftr on S.F. Bay that has been electric for a decade. I don't think electric is ready for a cruising boat yet, or every manufacturer would be jumping on it. No anchor war here. If you have to run a diesel to run electric, then what's the point?...........i2f
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:44   #36
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Re: Hybrid Electric Conversion for a Cat

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Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
jk,

Then why are Lagoon owners of electric propulsions converting them? Electric is in the future, and possibly soon.

There's a 30ftr on S.F. Bay that has been electric for a decade. I don't think electric is ready for a cruising boat yet, or every manufacturer would be jumping on it. No anchor war here. If you have to run a diesel to run electric, then what's the point?...........i2f

Has anyone tried gulf cart motors as aux. DC power? They are pretty cheep and should work well. I'm thinking about adding one by connecting it to the existing sail leg without taking out my diesel just to see how it works. I have room to mount it right above the transmission. What do you think???
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:15   #37
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Re: Hybrid Electric Conversion for a Cat

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Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
jk,

Then why are Lagoon owners of electric propulsions converting them? Electric is in the future, and possibly soon.
I could only find two people that were talking about converting theirs and one seemed to backtrack a little when they upgraded the electronics package and found some improvement. You may have more information about this then I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
There's a 30ftr on S.F. Bay that has been electric for a decade. I don't think electric is ready for a cruising boat yet, or every manufacturer would be jumping on it.
Manufacturers build to the lowest common denominator. They rarely include stuff that cruisers find interesting like solar, wind generators and watermakers because they drive base costs and many of there customers don't need them. Even if diesel electric worked exactly as promised I can't see any boat manufacturer adding them as anything other then an option as it would appeal to a small subset of their customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
No anchor war here. If you have to run a diesel to run electric, then what's the point?...........i2f
Running a diesel generator with some storage allows the generator to be smaller and run more consistently at optimal load and speed. The need for a marine transmission is removed and the actual drive engine (electric motor) should be much more reliable then a propulsion engine so having an alternative power source to the electric is much less complicated then having an alternative to a marine diesel propulsion engine. That would be the point, in my way of thinking.

I have to agree though that it has taken the industry longer to package already existing technology for cruiser use then I thought it would. I have a feeling the frenzy of the electric car world is taking a lot of the people and effort away from the marine world so a turnkey solution may be some time coming. You can just look at Glacier Bay. They had some good ideas in refrigeration and power generation and were focused on the marine industry for years but decided to go into trucking and medical fields as they saw more money there then in marine applications.

Jim
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:56   #38
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Re: Hybrid electric conversion for a cat

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9hp is one-third of 27hp no matter what kind of delusions one is under. The performance in adverse conditions will be readily apparent.
That is an apples to oranges comparison. Diesels are rated by peak horsepower at max RPM, at idle you have ZERO horsepower, dont believe me try dumping your clutch with ANY internal combustion engine at idle. Internal combustion engines power is determined by pressure of burning fuel multplied by square area of piston.

Electric motors do not "generate" any power, they merely convert one form of energy to another. They are rated by amount of heat they can dissipate at rated voltage. With cooling and for short periods of time they can greatly exceed this. The horsepower they put out is just how much electricity did you put in?

I recently converted my car to electric, I replaced a 140HP gas engine, radiator, transmission, drive train, water pump, alternator, starter, ... with a 10HP electric motor, and a controller. The performance and acceleration is the same...Range about half.

The advantages of electric, is the motor can always run at peak efficiency, the Diesel will only run efficiently at one RPM. ANY form of power can be converted to electricity and stored in batteries, and used as needed.

The disadvantages??? Finding large amounts of electricity in the middle of the ocean. Batteries are large, heavy, and expensive. The added cost and complexity of a relatively new technology, ( instead of mechanic, you need skills of electrical engineer).

The advantages, imediate quiet power whenever you want to move the boat. Flip a switch and you have thrust as long as the batteries hold out. Need a recharge, drop anchor and collect sun or wind for a couple of days. Try recharging your diesel that way???

I ran out of "gas" in my electric the other day, I had to drop to 2 miles an hour to get home. Several people ridiculed me for not being able to instantly refill with gas, (I stated, "don't feel sorry for me, I'll get home in a few hours to recharge, feel sorry for the guy who has to walk 5 miles carrying an empty gas can")

Using electric for propulsion may not be for everyone, but if it was doable I would use it for everything I need.
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:25   #39
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Re: Hybrid electric conversion for a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
Electric may not be for everybody. Yes, there are some limits that one must be aware of. But, there are ways around those limitations. One way is to have a generator on board if you want. I've always considered my boat first a sailboat and that's my primary propulsion. The motor's I had were always auxilary propulsion systems. My system has been used for much more than just manoevering around a harbor too. I've motored with it for up to six hours or a particularily windless day and it was a quiet six hours of motoring and I was not fatigued from the noise and vibration when I reached my destination. I spend hardly anytime on maintaining the system compared to the diesel and there is no hesitation in using it when I need to because unlike a diesel it's so quiet and in my experiece has been much more reliable than the diesel.
I fully subscribe to this comment. I've had electric propulsion on my boat for over a year and my experience has been quite similar to mbianka...
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:33   #40
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Re: Hybrid Electric Conversion for a Cat

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Originally Posted by jphillips48 View Post
Has anyone tried gulf cart motors as aux. DC power? They are pretty cheep and should work well. I'm thinking about adding one by connecting it to the existing sail leg without taking out my diesel just to see how it works. I have room to mount it right above the transmission. What do you think???
Check the electric boat forum (electricboats : Electric Boats), I think someone did that, an electric motor between the engine and shaft coupling, fed by a small battery bank. Used for docking/anchoring and short distance motoring instead of running the diesel. Such a configuration should minimize engine usage and wear. But... it is not only the motor, you need some sort of controller, motor controls (speed, direction), solenoid, if you install a separate battery bank then you'll need a battery charger and all the wiring, etc. Still a great idea.
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Old 07-07-2011, 14:32   #41
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Re: Hybrid Electric Conversion for a Cat

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Originally Posted by jphillips48 View Post
Has anyone tried gulf cart motors as aux. DC power? They are pretty cheep and should work well. I'm thinking about adding one by connecting it to the existing sail leg without taking out my diesel just to see how it works. I have room to mount it right above the transmission. What do you think???
I used an old fork lift motor for my car conversion, it has "scary" torque, also cheap.

If you could mount it so when it is "driving" it doesn't burn the transmission, or turn the diesel, you could just let it freewheel when using the diesel. As long as the bearings aren't under stress from misalignment the motor doesn't mind spinning with an open circuit, (if your controller handles regen you can do this to topoff batteries).
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Old 07-07-2011, 15:14   #42
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Re: Hybrid Electric Conversion for a Cat

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
I used an old fork lift motor for my car conversion, it has "scary" torque, also cheap.

If you could mount it so when it is "driving" it doesn't burn the transmission, or turn the diesel, you could just let it freewheel when using the diesel. As long as the bearings aren't under stress from misalignment the motor doesn't mind spinning with an open circuit, (if your controller handles regen you can do this to topoff batteries).
+1
What I would like to find is a way to engauge/disengauge a shaft coupler between the transmission and the electric motor, or have a idler in there so the motor can be up over the shaft out of the bilge.
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