How Tough Is the Owner/Charter Business?

[cisco007]

You will have the worst boss in the world. He will over work you and under pay you. He will make you wash dishes, clean up other people's spew, wash their soiled bedding and extract various unmentionable items that they will jam into marine toilets.

He will insit that you cook like a courdon bleu chef and be the most gracious host in the world, putting up with the most atrocious behavior from the most disgusting land lubber types that you could hope to never meet.

When he finally goes broke he will give you the flick without batting an eyelid. Forget about 401k contributions, severance pay, workers compensation and medical benefits.

If that's the kind of guy you are willing to work for, go ahead but don't say you weren't warned.

Cheers Cisco.

[David M]

Originally Posted by cisco007

You will have the worst boss in the world. He will over work you and under pay you. He will make you wash dishes, clean up other people's spew, wash their soiled bedding and extract various unmentionable items that they will jam into marine toilets.

He will insit that you cook like a courdon bleu chef and be the most gracious host in the world, putting up with the most atrocious behavior from the most disgusting land lubber types that you could hope to never meet.

When he finally goes broke he will give you the flick without batting an eyelid. Forget about 401k contributions, severance pay, workers compensation and medical benefits.

If that's the kind of guy you are willing to work for, go ahead but don't say you weren't warned.

Cheers Cisco.

Gawd you are so right Cisco. Being a licensed boat captain is the definition of being a jack of all trades. Additionally, people expect you to be a master at all those trades.

David

[jzk]

What about the day charter business? Go to a Cruise ship terminal and russel up 6 paying guests, $100 or so each for the day (6-8 hours). Get a cute girl to stand at the terminal with a sign, and you are set.

[Zanshin]

The cruise ships have their own businesses that they deal with (for a kickback & discounted rates) and usually don't hang around long enough for a (relatively) slow sailboat to acquire, load, entertain and return guests. Marketing over the internet is better.

[jzk]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

The cruise ships have their own businesses that they deal with (for a kickback & discounted rates) and usually don't hang around long enough for a (relatively) slow sailboat to acquire, load, entertain and return guests. Marketing over the internet is better.

On the many cruises that we have done, there are the cruise ship organized "excursions," and then when you get to the dock, the same and similar excursions can be had from people just standing there with a sign.

[Zanshin]

[jzk - that is what I was referring to, they have a couple of dive shops they work with and arrange (via VHF or phone) pickup at the ship, I've been on those dive boats a couple of times. But the ships are in harbour for such short periods that a catamaram daysail with dive is out of the question; even with a fast dive boat and a 30 minute trip to the dive site a 2-tank dive is cutting it mighty fine.

[jzk]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

[jzk - that is what I was referring to, they have a couple of dive shops they work with and arrange (via VHF or phone) pickup at the ship, I've been on those dive boats a couple of times. But the ships are in harbour for such short periods that a catamaram daysail with dive is out of the question; even with a fast dive boat and a 30 minute trip to the dive site a 2-tank dive is cutting it mighty fine.

I hear what you are saying, but I have done several Catamaran trips off of cruise ships. Of course, these are 60 ft day charter type catamarans, but the guests still pay $89 for 4 hours, or $139 for 8. Take 6 people snorkeling for a bit, serve them drinks afterwards, play some island music while everyone dances, and then they are gone forever. Maybe even sell them trinkets and photos. Have the wife learn to do those hair braids that they sell for $10 per braid that only take 4 minutes to do. If you could net $450 for the day, that wouldn't be a bad take to help the cruising lifestyle.

[sash]

Hi Bruce,

I see it pretty much the same way as ssullivan was describing his expirience. I am glad that my yacht is to small to do overnights because I have guaranteed my privacy on my very own yacht at the end of the day. I did in the past seven day Diving Live-aboard in the Red Sea and I know how draining it can be to attend to your clients for almost 24hs. From my business point of view it will stay a dream to work one week and have the next one off. In the end you've got to take what you can get in order to keep your self and your yacht floating and on your days of you will be anyhow plastered with plenty of maintenance.

About Scuba from a sailing vessel: doing scuba diving your self might be all right, its your yacht so you will take care about it. Commercially I would say you're gonna wreck your yacht in no time. It's a space issue on sailing boats and on a Catamaran its as well a weight issue. Tanks and compressor are not only heavy in weight but as well, not to forget heavy as an investment. Do on that one the numbers to figure it will really bring the extra profit.

Another good point I read before was to get detailed information about the "inspected vessel program" (USCG's inspection program). You may have to spend heaps more money on your just purchased Yacht just to make it complying to the rules. I know it from Australia that there is a big gap from private pleasure vessel to a commercial vessel. It depends a lot on "where" you wanna do your charter business.

I am running a charter business in Asia and I openly admit "it is not easy"! I had perhaps a very similar dream and I had to switch a lot from my first product ideas just to keep on going. And one more thing: don't underestimate the importance of MARKETING. Get someone who can get you going on that end because we as skippers can not do everything and we certainly can not be professionals on everything. Thats what I learned.

Good Luck anyway. I am with you!!!
Greetings from Thailand
Sascha

[Pelagic]

S.I.T.S. I have basically been doing that kind of work all my life and I think it has been wonderful!

Not sure why the other guys are sounding so negative because like any other service industry……it all comes down to attitude.

My Two Guiding Philosophies were simply;

1. Hospitality through Ability.

2. If you have a very difficult client then you; “Kill em with kindness” (It is the sweetest revenge when they depart realising that they missed out on getting to befriend a really caring and knowledgeable captain)

So the bottom line is that you have to be very secure in yourself and really enjoy your part in making people’s vacation dreams come true.

I think you need to spend more time on your business plan and get some real numbers for overheads in your area. Your numbers sound optimistic.

The Sail/Dive is a comfortable niche as the drinking is kept down until the last day, but the secret is to put together a package that is different from the rest and offers something special.

Good luck!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Thinking about this a bit more - the best dive "charter" I ever went on (ok, I have not done a lot! - not really that bothered about Diving to spend really good money on Charters) was in the Philippines, forget exactly where .....1/2 a dozen punters, a couple of open boats driven by locals, off for a couple of dives in the afternoon and then stopped on a beach for a BBQ and a few beers next to a driftwood fire. Mr Host had a light touch, not in your face jollying things along - but keeping conversation ticking along. Miss Host did much the same........a really laid back experiance far greater than the sum of it's parts.......that has obviously stuck in my mind

[S.I.T.S.]

BOOM!!!... sound of bubble bursting.

Actually thanks... I asked

Sully, I have read many of your posts and have come to respect your opinion. Just curious what kind of charters do you do? How many people on board? I would only have a max of four people on a charter. I also figured I might need a deckhand/ divemaster to help with the diving part. Both me and my wife are excellent cooks and as far as food goes, that is the last of my worries.

You guys are all throwing great stuff at me and that is exactly what I asked for. Not to be argumentative but I would like to address a couple of your concerns and please shoot any holes in it that need to be.

USCG...inspections... I would get a six pack license as I wouldn't ever charter to more than 4 people at a time. No inspections with that license.

Wastefull people....mmmm only have to deal with 4 at a time, maybe encourage the romance of showering together..... wait a minute, that could turn into a disaster. I guess you just have to reinforce the value of fresh water.. BTW don't water makers replentish a holding tank?

A few of you brought up the interviewing of the clients. Don't laugh but I think if one structures their marketing to appeal to a certain type, one maybe able to weed out some of the riff raff. As I mentioned before, my experience with scuba divers, especially the ones in my age group (53) are alot mellower when it comes to drinking. If a problem does arrive, is walking the plank still applicable?

Oh yes.... I saved this beauty for last. The old arm up to the elbow in someone elses poop.
Whatever the cost of ANY tool that will snake a toilet out.. I will gladly invest in.

You know, I have been on dive charters and I can honestly say, I didn't expect 5 star cooking. I was fed three good meals a day with a variety for breakfast and I was always satisfied. Cooking for me is a piece of cake, I love to do it and with planning and preparation I don't even look at it as a chore especially if there is a BBQ involved. In any case, after a slow start to this thread, I really appreciate all the negativity, I mean all the great advice. No seriously thanks for the input.

Bruce

[ssullivan]

Thanks, Bruce. Very kind. Not many people would respect my opinion, so I'll take one where I can get one!

Here are some answers, now that you're working with reality...

I did overnight week charters for couples and small (max 4 persons) families. We had a lot of great European guests, some great Americans and some ugly Americans.

No inspection needed for the OUPV (six pax) license.

Think of me when you are "reinforcing" the short shower thing. Think of me when you run out and have to waste lots of power running your watermaker... ha ha! Seriously, this was the most aggrivating part for me. But... it's part of the job.

As to weeding out riff raff: I charged a pretty steep rate. I figured it would keep cokeheads and drunks off. Boy was I wrong. The "new money" types, who made some recently or did not come from a long line of family money were the ones to watch out for. The "real estate rich" were the worst. They were just riff raff with some money. The truly ultra-rich or rich by family (like our Swiss Bank manager guest, a tennis pro) or the poor working class people treating themselves (cops, artists, etc..) were the best guests of all.

The "new money" people thought they were gods, probably because they had been lowly people their whole lives and now was their big chance to be a hotshot. The people with no money were thoughtful and kind. The ultra rich were quiet, reserved and also kind. You do meet a lot of interesting people in the business.

Ahhh... the tool to remove the clog... lol You have to take apart the head, full of water, pee and whatever else, take the hose off the head and use something to unclog it. There is no tool because clogs happen after the pump or inside the pump. Once you have pulled it apart, you are already in up to the elbows. ha ha

If you are prepared for the downsides, the upsides are good. It's just important to be ready because those downsides are big.

Originally Posted by S.I.T.S.

BOOM!!!... sound of bubble bursting.

Actually thanks... I asked

Sully, I have read many of your posts and have come to respect your opinion. Just curious what kind of charters do you do? How many people on board? I would only have a max of four people on a charter. I also figured I might need a deckhand/ divemaster to help with the diving part. Both me and my wife are excellent cooks and as far as food goes, that is the last of my worries.

You guys are all throwing great stuff at me and that is exactly what I asked for. Not to be argumentative but I would like to address a couple of your concerns and please shoot any holes in it that need to be.

USCG...inspections... I would get a six pack license as I wouldn't ever charter to more than 4 people at a time. No inspections with that license.

Wastefull people....mmmm only have to deal with 4 at a time, maybe encourage the romance of showering together..... wait a minute, that could turn into a disaster. I guess you just have to reinforce the value of fresh water.. BTW don't water makers replentish a holding tank?

A few of you brought up the interviewing of the clients. Don't laugh but I think if one structures their marketing to appeal to a certain type, one maybe able to weed out some of the riff raff. As I mentioned before, my experience with scuba divers, especially the ones in my age group (53) are alot mellower when it comes to drinking. If a problem does arrive, is walking the plank still applicable?

Oh yes.... I saved this beauty for last. The old arm up to the elbow in someone elses poop.
Whatever the cost of ANY tool that will snake a toilet out.. I will gladly invest in.

You know, I have been on dive charters and I can honestly say, I didn't expect 5 star cooking. I was fed three good meals a day with a variety for breakfast and I was always satisfied. Cooking for me is a piece of cake, I love to do it and with planning and preparation I don't even look at it as a chore especially if there is a BBQ involved. In any case, after a slow start to this thread, I really appreciate all the negativity, I mean all the great advice. No seriously thanks for the input.

Bruce

[Ram]

Seems like almost everyone here with the exciption of Pelagic really has little or no personal experence in the week long charter bussness,
Pelagis is right on in my experence 100%

I ran a dive charter bussness on my Alban trawler from Palm Beach to the Bahamas for 10 years doing over 100 weeks as Dive charters in the Bahamas , I only remember one clinit who was hard to live with , mostly beacuse she wanted to prove she was more of a man than the other guys onboard.

What I have found is most people want to have the best time of there life for that week and most of them do! People save up all year to come and spend a week with you , most are in a great mood and very happy to be aboard I never allowed smokeing/drinking so that helped.

I dont know where a lot of you guys get these "bad" customers but I dont have that problum.

I give them 2 meals & a snack a day Breakfast (simple) and lunch/dinner and wile its not 5 star it not bad , in the Bahamas I would never bring any meat of any kind - and caught, speared or just picked up the food right out of the ocean , it was fast and easy to get fish, counch, lobster if you knew where to look , so the food was fresh and good and cost me nothing.
I never had any troble finding a nice woman to come along and be crew,cook and that female energy seems to help keep things smooth in many ways, to this day I have never had to pay for help, other that there food and expensies.
I say go for it , its not anywhere near as hard as I hear some of the guys saying and if it is really that hard on them then there doing something very wrong, .
I never use a broker and got all my bussness thru word of mouth or website , no cost there, so the costs can be very low if things are paid for and the profits can be nice, not to mention its a great lifestyle

Water has been a challange at times , but I have no water maker .. YET, I dont really need one where I am now.

[frankdeegan]

Hi Ram, I was looking in the cruisers forums and noticed you charter in the Med, Can you tell me what is required to operate a charter vessel / sailboat. i can't seem to find any information, Is every country operating to the same standard, I'm looking at starting a charter for Irish traditional music players and getting them gig's at various ports of call. should be a nice market their. Your thoughts would appreciated.

Thanks

Frank Deegan

[John Drake]

Hello

I manage one of the largest charter operations in the US and think I can give you a fairly good idea of the business end. Chartering, some time ago, was a decent way to make some extra money. There was a time when there were relatively few operators, costs were low, dockage and fuel were low and liability was low. That is no longer the case.

Certainly, if you are driven to this and it is what you LOVE to do....you can do it and be happy with it. There are a few rules that will help you be successful:

1. You must drive your costs down at every turn
2. you must deliver first class, consierge service with a smile,
3. you must find a niche.
4. you must operate in a desireable location (but this will cost you more)

Your success will be determined by the above business factors and one personal factor: YOU.

Your personal ability to deal with people (many of whom will be difficult) and deliver a high degree of personal service and compelling interest to them. If they find you boring, your stories idiotic, your service lacking and you personally distasteful....you will starve. You need to be interesting, charismatic, personable, equanimous, "on" all the time, engaging and FUN...ALL the time.

There is certainly an upside to doing this. I would like to contribute the downside...not to focus on it, but for balance in your discussion.


Some reality, business, economic and liability issues:


As in any business, to be successful, you will need to do a cash flow analysis up front. Can you sustain the cost of a 200k boat, it associated insurance and maintenance costs and make a profit at all?

Vessel issues that will create a negative cash flow:

- you will definately go through a transmission - $3000
- your canvas and sails will get torn
- your insurance will be 3x what you pay now, if you can get it
- you will need to invest $2000 up front in training for your captain's license, DM cert and other certs
- you will need to invest a few thousand in new equip for the boat, both safety equip and additional items for the comfort of passengers
- your passengers will break any boarding ladder you have, a hatch or two, they will lose a few things over the side, they will rip a sail, they will tear your cabin fabrics and chip your teak. They will dirty your fabrics and cushions in ways you do not think possible.

You will not be charging your customers for any of these things and hope to grow your business.

Liability issues you will face that will create negative cash flow (these are real issues we face every year):

Someone will slip on your boat, fall and chip a tooth. You will be attentive and offer them assistance, which they will assure you is not needed. Two weeks after they are off your boat they will send you a bill for $10,000 in dental work. Either you or your insurance company WILL pay.

You will have a kid on your boat that is sick. Symptoms will be non-specific, he will have no fever, no headache and just general body aches. He will not be pale and his pulse will be regular and strong. You will decide it is just mal de mar, or had some bad food and you will not wish to end the cruise for this. That kid will have a perforated appendix and require emergency surgery. You will be sued.

A kid boarding a folding ladder onto your boat will be holding the sides, a wave lifts him up and one of his fingers gets caught on the hinge and is severed. You will be sued.

If you think the above extreme...you need to do more research. All the above has happened, exactly as I have described. Liability release waivers will not protect you in any way whatsoever.

Again...as I wrote above...not to focus on the downside...but to contribute this for the sake of balance and a reality check.

Chartering...THESE days...means investing 10's of thousands to make hundred's while incurring a million dollars liability. You will be competing with splashy ads by big firms that have very attractive models in them with policies that guarantee satisfaction or your money back.

People who ARE successfully chartering...and their are a few who DO make a living at it... have been doing it a long long time and have built a client base and a reputation. They have connections with boat yards and marina's that lower their costs. They know how to successfully prevent liability issues. They have friends and can avoid paying dockage for their boats. They have found a niche and are very very good at it.

I hope this helps...or at least contributes to the debate.

My best to all

John