Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-10-2009, 05:45   #1
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest
Boat: orion 50
Posts: 204
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to andreavanduyn
European VAT on '83-and-Older Vessels?

The European VAT was invented in 1983 ; my question is if a yacht from 1983 is free of VAT when coming to Europe from USA or has to be from 1982............who REALLY KNOWS THE ANSWER TO THIS?

We are keen to buy a boat in USA built 1983 and might take her to Europe one day hence the above question is key.
__________________

__________________
andreavanduyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 06:36   #2
Registered User
 
s/v Moondancer's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Fiji but heading for Alaska
Boat: Tayana 55
Posts: 1,225
This may help. VAT exemption on yachts returning to EU waters
__________________

__________________
Phil

"Remember, experience only means that you screw-up less often."
s/v Moondancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 06:43   #3
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest
Boat: orion 50
Posts: 204
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to andreavanduyn
1983

thanks Phil, read it but this does not specify this year nor clearly indicates if yachts from that year are free or as from 1982 onwards

Even brokers did not clearly know here in Europe
__________________
andreavanduyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 06:59   #4
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Sorry, not much help either

Have never even heard of "The European VAT" - as far as I knew taxes are levied by each EU country as they see fit. and each gets the money they collect.

But anyway, for a US boat VAT would only be an issue if you later wanted to sell within the EU........if you and the boat were a genuine visitor to the EU (ie you and boat are later leaving!) you don't pay VAT on arrival as you are not importing the boat - I dunno what the exact rules are to do that , but I recall you would need to clear in and their is a time limit for the boat to remain in the EU (18 months?)........the crew's visa requirements do of course differ from the boat. Quite a few threads on this already........

If you were looking at a high value transcation I would get professional tax advice.
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 07:21   #5
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest
Boat: orion 50
Posts: 204
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to andreavanduyn
ex vat 1983

correct David,

but me as European passport holder will get screwed.........laws are tightening up also between countries as they use computers now

For boats over 1 million there are still ways but for us small boys

hence I try to buy 1983 or 1982 or before.......saves hassle and they made some good boats that time
__________________
andreavanduyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2009, 15:15   #6
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Hire a lawyer.

In theory - any pre VAT boat does not pay the VAT, US, EU or China built.

There will be other taxes though, so do not worry.

If it is your boat and you have had her in the US and now are moving to the EU, you can has the boat imported as a part of your dowry. Some paperwork, but little cost.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 03:23   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: S.E.Asia
Boat: Vagabond 42
Posts: 74
I have just sold a boat with a VAT exemption certificate but don't have a copy of it handy. From memory, boats built after 1975 were liable for VAT but that was extended to a little later, 1979?, because of administrative difficulties.

In theory you could be asked for the exemption certificate or proof that VAT has been paid anywhere in the EU at any time and if you can't produce one or the other, you will be charged.

Assuming that you are importing a yacht as opposed to visiting in a foreign flagged ship, you pay once at the current rate levied in the first EU country you hit, which made the Azores (Portugal) the favourite first port of call for Europeans importing boats bought in the US or Canada (lowest VAT rate) but that might have changed in the last year or so.
__________________
galleyslave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 03:45   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: S.E.Asia
Boat: Vagabond 42
Posts: 74
I have just had a look at a couple of websites and it appear to be a bit of a moving feast. Firstly, it is not the EU but EEA, which includes Norway and Iceland. The relevant date, for the UK, appears to be 1985 but each country has its own interpretation.

Different rules apply for charter and other commercially used yachts. An EU registered yacht looses its VAT status if sold abroad, even if the purchaser is also an EU resident (Make sure that the papers show the transaction as having taken place in the EU.), and so on. Good Luck!
__________________
galleyslave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 03:47   #9
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest
Boat: orion 50
Posts: 204
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to andreavanduyn
Galleyslave you are correct

Just spoke to a broker in Holland who finally told me frankly that if as a European passport holder you can not prove the boat was from before 1985 AND prove that it originates from Europe .............you pay the full VAT in that country.

Tax authorities are not there to assist or understand they need hard proof and only when boat from before 1985 or if after a proof of VAT paid

*as computer systems are now linked between customs from different European countries WE EUROPEAN PASSPORT HOLDERS can take a yacht from outside of Europe and sail around 18 months (new now) but depending on the mood of the customs can still be put on a chain as they are clearly instructed to collect the money needed by governments here in Europe today

ANYbody knows more?


AH and FORGOT that if anybody wants to sell his yacht through a reputable broker in Europe these days the yacht has to get a CE certificate (- another burocratic rule to protect the European yachtbuilders.......if any left these days)
__________________
andreavanduyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 04:29   #10
Marine Service Provider
 
edsailing's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Devon, UK
Boat: Sailing vessels up to 200 tons
Posts: 320
Images: 1
As I understand it, the question is whether you just want to sail to Europe and then leave again or whether you want to import the vessel.

If you want to import it, then VAT may be payable in the country first arrived at (and rates vary between countries) - but if it is an old boat it may be deemed exempt if its build year predates the introduction of VAT.

If you are just visiting, then no VAT is due.

Suggest you contact the Tax authorities in the relevant country if you are planning to import.
__________________
Regards, Ed

Delivering boats for a living - no more!
edsailing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 04:40   #11
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest
Boat: orion 50
Posts: 204
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to andreavanduyn
Ed, did so and now clear that VAT has to be paid WHATEVER THE DATE OF BUILT when the boat was not yet owned by an European owner.

I thought, alike many people, alike you but have now discovered that in fact tax authorities win always.......unless you can CLEARLY PROVE vat has been paid by an owner in Europe at a time during the life of your yacht

Otherwise you go on the chain or pay tax as a European owner of that yacht.
__________________
andreavanduyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 05:21   #12
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Have never even heard of "The European VAT" - as far as I knew taxes are levied by each EU country as they see fit. and each gets the money they collect.
VAT rules are standardised accross the EU, There are some minor country specific situations, but the main thing is that countries can set differnet rates but the lowest allowable standard rate is 15%. The EU takes a percentage of teh VAT receipts and is one of the main ways its funds itself.


VAT was harmonised in a series of treaties, Boats built before 31 December 1984 and which were present in the then EU at midnight on that date were automatically deemed to be VAT Paid. ("status VAT deemd to be paid"). Some countries like the UK formalised this ( The UK tend to formalise everything!) , and issue a document confirming this ( but only to thoses owners that bothered to apply). Other countries had varients of this and many did nothing formal.

Hence it must have been built before 1985 and proof must be provided that it was in the EU at that time ( marina receipts) etc. Again depending on the country you may not actually get any proof or confirmation.

Quote:
In theory you could be asked for the exemption certificate or proof that VAT has been paid anywhere in the EU at any time and if you can't produce one or the other, you will be charged.
No thats not true VAT is the responsibilty of the country of tax residency of the owner. So if you have a bill of sale between two private EU tax residents in a EU country ( or two EU countries). Then that shows that VAT is only an issue in the country of the buyer ( This under NMT , new means of Transport rules). VAT is therefore of no concern to other EU countries, They only get involved if the yacht/owner is from outside the EU and is not in The Temporary Import Relief scheme ( ie the 18 month allowance).

Quote:
WE EUROPEAN PASSPORT HOLDERS can take a yacht from outside of Europe and sail around 18 months (new now) but depending on the mood of the customs can still be put on a chain as they are clearly instructed to collect the money needed by governments here in Europe today
Absolute balderdash, Private non-commercial EU tax residents ( it is irrevelant what passport you hold, for example a US citizend holding a US passport could still be a EU tax resident). have no time allowance for the deferment of VAT. VAT is due immediately on import , importing being defined as teh moment you enter the Customers Union of the EU ( This includes The Channel islands and the canaries and Gibraltor, ) Ceuta is outside however.

Again in an EU registered boat belonging to a EU tax resident, VAT is only an issue in the EU country of the owner/boat. For example French customs can never collect VAT on a UK Vat due boat. Even if they did, you would still owe the VAT to the UK. VAt payments are not passed between customs authorities of EU countries.
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 05:40   #13
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest
Boat: orion 50
Posts: 204
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to andreavanduyn
Good information and appreciate the input BUT

as for which country can or can not put your boat on the chain you are not correct unfortunately.
Here we heard in the meditaranean of yachts getting into trouble with Italian or French customs whilst the owners were Dutch or Brittish and VAT should officially be paid there.

*this is the reason I came up with this discussion to see who knows and what is the theoretical true and reality........just also to warn my fellow yachtsmen with European passports that not all is as the books prescribe

More info more clear; anybody shoot
__________________
andreavanduyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 06:11   #14
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
as for which country can or can not put your boat on the chain you are not correct unfortunately.
Here we heard in the meditaranean of yachts getting into trouble with Italian or French customs whilst the owners were Dutch or Brittish and VAT should officially be paid there.

This is teh problem, you have "heard" of things". Owners get into trouble with customs for lots of things. lack of documentation almost always being the problem.


I repeat you cannot pay VAT in one EU country where VAT is due in another. It does not make the boat VAT paid , it merely means you have paid french customs money they didnt deserve.!!

Once you can show that a boat was imported into a particular EU country and the transaction to you occurred in that country, then VAT is the rsponsibility of that country.

I actually have never met, first hand any body ( with an EU boat and being a EU resident) that had a VAT issue, unless they were trying something dodgy. The one case I know , was because the boat was a UK boat, but was new and hadnt been registered ( and had no name on the back). Med countries all require registration and get all worked up if they dont see nice big numbers on the stern quarter. This particular owner had a job convincing the customs that it wasnt a foreign import.


Just to state, If you are an EU tax resident of one country and you own a boat based in that country, the VAT can only be resolved with the customs authorities of that country.
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2009, 06:48   #15
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest
Boat: orion 50
Posts: 204
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to andreavanduyn
is your boat VAT paid and are you in European waters?

WE just did 3 months in Turkey and overheard these stories as boat owners are simply worried.
Many did not pay VAT when buying new or second hand in Turkey and now are facing a new challenge.

This is why I write this blog and have this discussion ; I have no intentions to take my boat (currently in USA) to Europe till I am 100 % clear on custom issues.

learned that mainly customs themselves are not all that clear on the current status; or are you custom officer?
__________________

__________________
andreavanduyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Purchasing Vessels Registered and Owned in Another Country Ocean2Free Dollars & Cents 12 13-09-2009 21:08
Tracking Vessels with AIS Ex-Calif Off Topic Forum 0 18-08-2009 01:36
European VAT question Sailorcanuck Dollars & Cents 11 16-04-2009 06:50
Le Comte Sailing Vessels from Netherlands SkiprJohn Monohull Sailboats 2 29-12-2008 21:34
Looking for Watermaker vessels Tellie Classifieds Archive 0 19-03-2008 16:57



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:32.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.