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View Poll Results: Delivery Crew Pays?
I think crew are worth paying for to ensure the safe passage of my vessel. 39 65.00%
I think crew should pay me to come on my boat, I am worth it. 2 3.33%
My case is a real hardship 1 1.67%
Give it up Delancey! 18 30.00%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 20-02-2015, 23:31   #46
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

Apparently, you should pay for thier food & drink too because if you oblige them to do so would be illegal!
I stand corrected, and will add that to my list of reasons to limit any sailing in the land of the long white litigator.
I find it hard to fathom people being fined for this kind of thing, but there is plenty I don't understand about American culture, so i'll just let that be.

Its a law designed to stop illegal profiteering.
In my home country, its now illegal now to spank your kids... its another one of those laws that is designed to stop a certain kind of abuse, but if it were strictly enforced, you'd be locking up half the populace.


For the sake of clarity, I would not condone the intoxification of the skipper... the bottles in my example were clearly to be consumed at anchor, on the beach, and by non-essential crew while underway


Incidentally, how does this lovely law of yours work for groups chartering? If I charter a boat, instead of owning one, and the boys and I share the costs... am I still on the hook? It would be a condition of carriage, so... ?
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Old 21-02-2015, 01:18   #47
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

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Originally Posted by bvimatelot View Post
As far as I know, the US CG makes no differentiation between crew and passengers if they are paying. As far as they are concerned, there's no such thing as a crew who pays: he/she is a passenger.
Ya, I realise this from a legal perspective. But if I'm taking a hippy from Costa Rica to Panama why should I care what some American law says?

I'm not an American and as I stated I can't think of any good reason to flag a vessel out of the state's. A lot of these caribean countries don't have very stringent laws on small passenger vessels.

Pay a few hundred dollars for a local safety inspection and pay a few hundred dollars for a local captains licence and call it a day.

The only reason why I would give a hoot about what American law says is if I was operating out of the US.

The six pack is just a bizzaro licence, doesn't fit into the international scheme at all. If you want something internationally recognised you're going to need an STCW licence or for yachts the UK yachtmasters seem to be well recognised.


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Old 21-02-2015, 02:44   #48
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

The UK ( the jurisdiction I sail under) people had a good 'sit down and think' about this after the loss of the 'Marquesas' (sp?). It all came down to crew, passengers and 'paying crew'.
The result is that if the crew 'pay' then they are passengers and your yacht must be in survey, skipper must have a ticket etc etc...

So what constitutes paying? Paying their way, ie food and fizz, is fine ( thats what most of us do if our chums are aboard, no?) but if they pay a share of diesel and marina costs etc they are paying for the running of the ship and become passos.

I will never ask anybody for more than food and fizz money and if I was desperate would not even do that as then they are doing me a favour.

Get caught under the UK flag illegaly plying for hire and reward... go to jail...do not pass go.
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Old 21-02-2015, 04:47   #49
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

Just as any "undocumented worker" today, I am an undocumented Captain, I have a freind who is an undocumented Pharmacist and if you have undocumented crew just keep your watches under 29 hours a week and you wont even be required to provide health care.
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Old 21-02-2015, 05:45   #50
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

You can share expenses - They don't "volunteer" to share, I don't "volunteer" to let them on my boat...




SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows:
"(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.."
DESCRIPTION - The determination of what constitutes the carriage of a "passenger for hire" must be made on a case by case basis. This determination is dependent upon the actual operation of a vessel and the flow of consideration as determined by the facts of each case. In general, there needs to be some form of tangible consideration or promise of performance being passed for a "passenger for hire" situation to exist.
SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:
"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies." Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes, are not considered as an exchange of consideration.


(BTW - I am all about the "morale" chicks. You bring 'em and I'll pay for gas...)
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Old 21-02-2015, 06:00   #51
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

If you want to cross the line from crew covering their expenses to actually making a small profit, most places will require some kind of certification. This certification generally isn't very hard to get though, depending on scale. I'm not familiar with UK regs but for example.


In Canada, if you're under 15 Tons and carrying less then 12 passengers, you're looking at the blue decal program- which is a self inspection program, you just need basic safety equipment that common sense would dictate you had if you were carrying passengers any way. "Captains" licence is an SVOP- basically a 3 day course on safe boating- not exactly Master Mariner stuff. If you're over 15 tons, forget about it- it's not worth it unless it's your making a career of it.


US is very similar to Canada- self inspection for small vessels, no fancy equipment required, I believe 6 passengers is the magic number there, Americans would be able to provide better specifics. They have their 6 pack licence. Like the Canadian SVOP- it's no good outside of the US, but it's very easy to get (although more difficult than the SVOP- mostly because their weird war on drugs requires drug testing for water taxi drivers).


As you get down into the Caribbean, it gets even easier to get Captains licences and safety certificates for small craft carrying small numbers of passengers. If you want to carry passengers for profit, just follow the local regulations- they generally aren't very demanding and you can carry paying passengers- legally.
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Old 21-02-2015, 06:22   #52
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

First off I am not an admiralty lawyer, but I am on my 7th issue of a masters license with sail endorsement to 500 tons. Now, speaking only of US flagged vessels, if the vessel accepts any form of payment, (ie fuel or food) there needs to be a licensed captain aboard as you are now carrying passengers for hire. The person speaking about giving a hippy a ride in Costa Rico is still subject to the Jones act if any injuries occur. I'm not trying to be a wise ass but it is surprisingly easy to have a vessel siezed by the US Marshall's for Jones Act suits. Not saying it will happen, just saying it can! Owners need to know the facts.
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Old 21-02-2015, 06:39   #53
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

The Jones act? What does the Jones act have to do with the price of tea in China?
So if I have a Costa Rican flagged sailboat, I'm a Canadian citizen, I have a Costa Rican inspected vessel and I carry half a dozen paying hippies to Panama, the last thing I'm going to worry about is the Jones act.

That's taking manifest destiny to a whole new level. I'm no lawyer either but I thought the Jones act had to do with trading between US ports, the American equivalent of what we call in Canada the Coasting Trade Act. Not the least bit relevant even to American citizens trading outside of US territorial waters.

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Old 21-02-2015, 11:17   #54
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

If you bothered to read and comprehend the ENTIRE post I clearly stated it applied Only to US flagged vessels. A.H. !
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Old 21-02-2015, 12:55   #55
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

What are you talking about? You said the person going to Costa Rica would be subject to the Jones act. Costa Rica does not have any US ports.

So therefore you're not trading between US ports and the Jones act would not apply.

Jones Act is designed to combat foreign investment from within the US. It has no relevance in Costa Rica US flagged or not.

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Old 21-02-2015, 19:44   #56
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

As someone who took good advice here and bought a small boat to
Reacquaint myself with sailing after selling my Ericson 27 15 years ago
And build sea miles crewing on others boats.
I can say for sure that most "crew wanted" adds are using
"Crew Contributions" to subsidies their cruising.
Owner takes 5 on board, charges uh excuse me requires
A 50 Euro a day contribution per. That works out to
250 a day or 1750 a week. Seems to me there is more here than
Just covering food
Don't know what "Shared Expenses" is but could be another way
Of saying "blank check"
Everything is cool but one big disaster is gonna blow this up
And it will be reflected in everybodies insurance
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Old 21-02-2015, 20:35   #57
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time2Go View Post
Everything is cool but one big disaster is gonna blow this up
And it will be reflected in everybodies insurance
If you are chartering on the black I think your insurer will walk....
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Old 25-03-2015, 00:49   #58
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

Realistically a "delivery" crew is a hired crew including a Captain if the owner is not on board. The USCG licensed captain may be paid by day or nautical mile, the crew is usually by day. This will usually be an insurance carrier requirement to travel outside your coverage area. All expenses are paid including travel. If you're trying to get guys to come along for the "trip of a lifetime", it is NOT a delivery. Just call it a cruise, trip, party or whatever, but it is not a delivery.
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Old 25-03-2015, 08:48   #59
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

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Originally Posted by captainjim47 View Post
Realistically a "delivery" crew is a hired crew including a Captain if the owner is not on board. The USCG licensed captain may be paid by day or nautical mile, the crew is usually by day. This will usually be an insurance carrier requirement to travel outside your coverage area. All expenses are paid including travel. If you're trying to get guys to come along for the "trip of a lifetime", it is NOT a delivery. Just call it a cruise, trip, party or whatever, but it is not a delivery.
I believe our insurance would also require a rider for additional paid crew: we can only have one.
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Old 25-03-2015, 08:51   #60
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Re: Delivery Crew Pays?

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Originally Posted by Tingum View Post
If you bothered to read and comprehend the ENTIRE post I clearly stated it applied Only to US flagged vessels. A.H. !
My understanding of the Jones Act is that it is a law requiring trade or cargo shipped between US ports to be shipped on a US flagged vessel only.

So any commercial trade involving non US ports would not be regulated under the Jones act regardless of whether the vessel is US flagged or not.
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