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Old 06-01-2015, 05:48   #31
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Run away. Not only is the owner stupid for not carrying insurance, he's even stupider for telling a relative stranger that he has $100k stashed on his boat. Unless of course he doesn't and he just told you that to satisfy your concern, which makes him a liar.
Also, only I hold the combination to the safe. I know whats inside it, and I know its not enough to cover me, and it doesn't substitute for proof of insurance.
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:53   #32
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

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A million dollars of International liability for our 52 foot 30 ton leaky teaky is only a couple hundred bucks a year. Seems strange to break the law over not much cost. You do need proof in most ports and most marinas. We only carry liability and offer the occasional virgin sacrifice to the sea for more complete coverage.
Where do you buy such insurance? I tried several avenues to buy just liability insurance, and so far, have been unable to find anyone who sells just blanket liability.

Homeowners in the USA can typically add a blanket liability to existing homeowners insurance, but as American expats living abroad, we don't have homeowners insurance. And local insurance where we live does not have additional liability even as an option.
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:55   #33
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Would seem to me that the OP asking the question means he really knows the answer.

Unless the pay check is enough to take the risk don't do it.
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Old 06-01-2015, 06:43   #34
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

The whole situation smells. The cost of liability insurance compared to the cost of the boat, your salary, annual fuel, docking and maintenance is trivial, almost inconsequential. Should be less than pocket change for someone that can own and operate a boat like this.

So why does the owner not want to pay for the insurance? Makes me wonder if there is something fishy on the title or ownership.
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Old 06-01-2015, 07:48   #35
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

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Originally Posted by barnaclejim View Post
A million dollars of International liability for our 52 foot 30 ton leaky teaky is only a couple hundred bucks a year. Seems strange to break the law over not much cost. You do need proof in most ports and most marinas. We only carry liability and offer the occasional virgin sacrifice to the sea for more complete coverage.
Wow! Where and with whom? Please do tell!

Now as for some other comments - we sailed New Caledonia and were never asked for insurance. Our boat is NZ registered and we had to have liability for the marinas there. Some Australian marinas ask but stay on anchor and you can get around that. However liability should really be the bottom line.

Now back to the OP. I agree with all the others - my first thought was this owner is putting a target on the side of the boat. My second thought was your licence may be at risk but I would seek legal advice on that and not represent yourself if you do intend to go through with this job.

My uneducated, non legal opinion? Don't do it. FWIW.
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:16   #36
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Indeed, what makes more sense is the OP is the boat owner, and is asking about not having insurance without asking about not having insurance by making up a story.

I never get insurance unless legally required. You can often get very high deductibles that make the cost very low, yet meet legal requirements.

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The whole situation smells. The cost of liability insurance compared to the cost of the boat, your salary, annual fuel, docking and maintenance is trivial, almost inconsequential. Should be less than pocket change for someone that can own and operate a boat like this.

So why does the owner not want to pay for the insurance? Makes me wonder if there is something fishy on the title or ownership.
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:24   #37
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

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So why does the owner not want to pay for the insurance? Makes me wonder if there is something fishy on the title or ownership.
This is kind of the bigger picture issue I am dealing with. He says it has nothing to do with the money, but that insurance in his country is a scam through and through. Therefore, he feels he is throwing money out the window. All of us feel this to a certain degree, and as has been mentioned before, insurance companies would not be in business if it were profitable to do so, yet the cost of liability insurance is only a small fraction of what they would be required to pay in the cost of an incident. Whats more fishy?

This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of the owner. But I just want to respond to your comment, because your concerns are the same as mine.

My opinion is...every, and I mean every boat I have ever worked on, owned, or dealt with has had at least liability. Many forgo hull insurance, but the bottom line is definitely liability.

I've checked all papers...only thing that seems to be out of line is that a phony MMSI was used on the EPIRB registration. I am in the process of changing that. He said its because it wasn't available at the time he submitted the paperwork.

But all that taken into account, its still fishy.

Thanks for your input.
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:32   #38
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Indeed, what makes more sense is the OP is the boat owner, and is asking about not having insurance without asking about not having insurance by making up a story.

I never get insurance unless legally required. You can often get very high deductibles that make the cost very low, yet meet legal requirements.
Not the case, I assure you. I'm on here anonymously anyway. I'm trying to reinforce my beliefs, so that when I say "I won't work on the boat without 3rd party insurance", I know I'm not throwing away an otherwise amazing job opportunity because I'm too cautious. I've already reinforced my beliefs, so this thread has served its purpose, and I thank all who submitted comments. Don't worry, there won't be an uninsured boat out there with me as captain.
May everyone have a blessed sailing year.
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:37   #39
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Well, you know the owner is trying to cheap out by self-insuring. Does that mean he might cut other corners that would impact you? Something to consider.

And having $100k aboard the boat might be an issue. For instance, leaving the US with more than ten grand may get it confiscated, unless the right paperwork has been filed in advance. Going around the world...someone might think it involved the drug trade, could that be an issue?

At a minimum you'd want a "hold harmless" agreement with him but I'd suggest you'd also want personal and professional liability insurance in a high amount. Enough to cover a personal suit against you, if the owner says "I told him..." and it just isn't true, but meanwhile, you've dragged anchor and smashed up two fine yachts. Oh, and the helicopter that fell off one after you hit it.

Apparently you've had a gut feeling that something is not normal here. Listen to that feeling. And figure, a couple of hours with an attorney might be in order, either for this gig or whatever the next one is, to explore these kind of issues and ways to protect yourself.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:04   #40
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

I would say that the owner's decision not to carry liability insurance is one of many factors you should consider, one of which would be the owner's liquid net worth.
A rational person with whom you will want to do business might hold the same opinion as the owner. People who are successful often have unorthodox views.
If you really want the job, find coverage for him and present him with the quote, telling him that you understand his position, but that as a professional captain, you believe you are at too much risk working without liability insurance.
A rational person with whom you will want to do business will recognize that you have a valid point of view and, knowing the exact dollar amount involved, will get the insurance.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:32   #41
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

... Maybe a own liability insurence as a skipper/captain will help you. I am using Pantaenius Skipper Third Party Liability Insurance

Double ckeck with Pantaenius (or any other insurence that offer this kind of insurence) especially because the boat you want to work on does not have any liability insurence.

Regards,

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Old 06-01-2015, 12:49   #42
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

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Originally Posted by fairweather1 View Post
This is kind of the bigger picture issue I am dealing with. He says it has nothing to do with the money, but that insurance in his country is a scam through and through. Therefore, he feels he is throwing money out the window.
This argument won't hold water because one does not have to purchase insurance in "his country". No problem at all to purchase liability insurance from very reputable firms in Europe or other first world countries that will give you global coverage.

Another thought. If something happens and you have a minor fender bender with the megayacht in the next slip, forget lawyer bills. That $100K might barely cover the dent repair and a new Awlgrip job.


QUOTE=fairweather1;1717198] All of us feel this to a certain degree, and as has been mentioned before, insurance companies would not be in business if it were profitable to do so, yet the cost of liability insurance is only a small fraction of what they would be required to pay in the cost of an incident. Whats more fishy?

[/QUOTE]

Nothing fishy at all about the cost of insurance, it is plain math based on actuarial tables. You sell dog bite insurance to 100,000 customers. Historical data shows that statistically 1% of all dogs will bite someone in a given year and average claims against the dog owner for a bite are $500. So in a typical year DB Insurance Inc will pay out $500,000 in claims. So DBI charges each customer $10/year for insurance for a total income of $1,000,000 leaving a profit of $500,000. So the dog owner for $10/year is protected from the risk of paying a $500 claim if his dog bites the neighbor and DBI makes money.



QUOTE=fairweather1;1717198]This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of the owner. But I just want to respond to your comment, because your concerns are the same as mine. [/QUOTE]

Understand you are just the messenger relaying the opinion of the owner so promise not to shoot you.

QUOTE=fairweather1;1717198]My opinion is...every, and I mean every boat I have ever worked on, owned, or dealt with has had at least liability. Many forgo hull insurance, but the bottom line is definitely liability. [/QUOTE]

Which segues into an issue that has been touched on peripherally in this thread. Unless a boat owner has that $100K (or more) in the safe, liability insurance is a must have for everyone. That is unless that boat owner plans to skip out on paying if he/she happens to smash into a neighbors boat.

Can't wait to see what kind of s---storm this comment creates.
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Old 06-01-2015, 14:48   #43
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Some people are legitimately self insured. In the State of California, where I formerly resided, in lieu of having proof of the minimum $35,000 liability auto insurance you can buy a $35,000 surety bond. Or you can just deposit $35,000 cash with the DMV.
Large corporations self insure, often through an offshore subsidiary.
They also can legally self insure for their health care costs under certain rules. (But in those cases they prudently buy reinsurance.)
Boat owners without liability insurance may not always pay.
But insurance companies sometimes do not pay.
Insurance companies sometimes pay because of nuisance value.
People get sued at times because they have insurance.
If the lawyer knows there is no insurance, he might not file the lawsuit. There is no source of recovery.
So, there is an honest reason for refusing to carry liability insurance.


Its all a matter of scale, too.
I can ride my bicycle in a reckless manner and possibly kill someone. But, as far as I know, I am not required to obtain liability insurance for my bicycle.
When I buy a DVD player at Best Buy, I never buy the warranty coverage. I live too far away from the US to make a claim.
I tell the sales clerk that I do not buy warranty protection on ball point pens.
You do not insure what is too little to cover nor what is too great.
If you hit Pelorus and sink it, your liability coverage will likely prove insufficient. David Geffen paid $300 million for it.
As once counseled to me,
"Don't sign any guarantees for less than $50 million."
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Old 06-01-2015, 18:02   #44
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

PS: If he has a spare $100,000 that he's going to put in a non-interest bearing safe, why not just put it in a bank account paying 3% interest; Or perhaps something that pays dividends? That should easily cover the premium for a liability only policy premium on a very nice yacht anyway.....


Lots of other good points already made by other posters above. The countries of New Zealand, Mexico, Australia, Greece, France, & Italy all require proof of Insurance, to name a few, not to mention the individual marinas who don't want your business if you can't provide proof of insurance.


You might find out what's his objection to insurance companies? Did he have a bad experience?
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Old 06-01-2015, 20:02   #45
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

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PS: If he has a spare $100,000 that he's going to put in a non-interest bearing safe, why not just put it in a bank account paying 3% interest; Or perhaps something that pays dividends? That should easily cover the premium for a liability only policy premium on a very nice yacht anyway.....
Bank paying 3%? I would like to know about that as well as the 1 mill liability for $200.

My credit union currently paying some fraction of a percent.
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