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Old 05-01-2015, 20:31   #16
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Sorry I have to bite on this.

Professional Yachtsman of 7 years...?

Second, unless you are an attorney/barrister...not just a barista. You would be a fool to represent your-self. Even if you are of legal counsel, only a fool represents ones-self.

Third, you must declare anything over 10K USD leaving and entering into another country. Otherwise you're a money launderer.

You would be well advised to hire an attorney/barrister to represent your needs, exclusive to the needs of your owner.

Lloyd




Quote:
Originally Posted by fairweather1 View Post
Hello, I am a professional yachtsmen of 7 years, about to take my first full-time captain's position (I've done many deliveries and project manager stuff, as well as served in various positions in realm of white boats).
There are a couple of things bothering me about the boat I am joining, but the principal is that the owner has elected not to carry insurance...liability or otherwise. He justifies it by keeping 100k in the boat safe, and saying this will be enough to cover anything that happens.
I am an American, so I might be thinking too litigiously, but I wanted to throw this out there to any professionals in the industry. Would you take this position under these terms? I'm not saying we need to carry hull insurance, but no liability?
I have drafted a contract (something I've done many times before), but this time it has many provisions in the "What If" category, essentially CYA should anything happen. Its grammatically bullet-proof, but I'm wondering if this is enough to remove my personal liability, and to protect my license in the case of an incident.
Also, in my experience, many marinas/customs/canal operators require to carry liability. Is this a valid experience, or am I misinformed? We will be circumnavigating, so this is quite important.
The boat is definitely designed as an owner/operator long-distance cruiser.
Many thanks in advance...and bonus points if the person who chose "fairweather" responds.
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Old 05-01-2015, 20:38   #17
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

What I mean by "professional yachtsman" is that I have been paid to do this for 7 years, not that this represents the extent of my experience.
I have no idea what the rest of your message means, except that I'm putting myself on the front lines maybe? I agree. This is why I am getting other opinions from cruisers, as I have only worked on large white boats to this point, and have never had to make a case for "insurance or no insurance". I am just wondering what other cruisers do, and what the legal ramifications are.
Thank you
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:01   #18
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

You sound like you want to try and change the skipper's mind and keep the job.

I doubt s/he will care what other cruisers do, because usually such people, if not crooks, are at least highly independent and don't care a bit what other cruisers do.

I have to agree with weavis on this. I think the deal is fishy somehow, and probably beyond your capacity as a hired hand to rectify. Tell him the lack of liability insurance is a deal breaker for you.

And also, consider carrying insurance of your own. Talk to an attorney to learn what you may really need. America's not the only litigious nation.

Ann
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:33   #19
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Run, not walk, away from this. As stated before:

Moving that much cash around is illegal without constantly reporting it, which will make the boat (and you) a target.

Even then it may be inadequate for liability purposes. And are you going to show the money to every harbormaster who asks to see your insurance? You would be safer wearing a target at the gun range.

I'm pretty certain some countries will require insurance anyway.

You have to ask what sort of person will risk carrying that much cash, earning no interest, but won't buy insurance.

And what is your recourse if things go south? How do you get the money owed when he has the key? International treaties hold the ship responsible for all medical bills of the crew - potentially a huge liability.

There is a reason things are done the way they are - be very suspicious of anyone trying to do things differently.

Greg
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:36   #20
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
I think the deal is fishy somehow
Also my reaction. It's not a rational choice to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
And also, consider carrying insurance of your own. Talk to an attorney to learn what you may really need. America's not the only litigious nation.

Ann
My thoughts again- if you are going to have responsibility and be employed in any real capacity on the boat, not carrying it could be catastrophic.
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Old 05-01-2015, 21:47   #21
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

sounds a bit like a situation i found myself dealing with a few years ago in my engineering business - as an aside I used to occasionally hire myself out to dismantle and move the kind of heavy machines i manufactured. Once in awhile i came across the species of client that set off warning bells and in this instance a version of that type approached me to quote for the cost of moving some of their machines asking me to include a fixed price to cover repairing any damage done by other contractors. I was a bit taken aback during negotiations until i realised what i was being asked to do was provide insurance on a fixed price basis. When i put this to the client they didnt seem to think they were being unreasonable so i told them i would stick to my core manufacturing business and they could go find someone else to be their patsy.

You, my friend, are being hired to provide free insurance that you probably dont have the means or interest in supplying to this client and you should look to the basics of your business.
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Old 05-01-2015, 22:10   #22
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

A million dollars of International liability for our 52 foot 30 ton leaky teaky is only a couple hundred bucks a year. Seems strange to break the law over not much cost. You do need proof in most ports and most marinas. We only carry liability and offer the occasional virgin sacrifice to the sea for more complete coverage.
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Old 05-01-2015, 22:17   #23
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Sorry I have to bite on this.

Professional Yachtsman of 7 years...?

Second, unless you are an attorney/barrister...not just a barista. You would be a fool to represent your-self. Even if you are of legal counsel, only a fool represents ones-self.

Third, you must declare anything over 10K USD leaving and entering into another country. Otherwise you're a money launderer.

You would be well advised to hire an attorney/barrister to represent your needs, exclusive to the needs of your owner.




Lloyd

Bingo! sorry, just had to say it.
It sounds to me like the owner is trying to relieve his liability to the captain.
I would also run from the offer!
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Old 05-01-2015, 22:17   #24
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnaclejim View Post
A million dollars of International liability for our 52 foot 30 ton leaky teaky is only a couple hundred bucks a year. Seems strange to break the law over not much cost. You do need proof in most ports and most marinas. We only carry liability and offer the occasional virgin sacrifice to the sea for more complete coverage.
That sounds like a very good deal to me! I haven't had any luck in finding a reasonable international 3d party policy. Would you mind telling us who the coverage is with? I'd like to get a quote myself!

Jim
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Old 05-01-2015, 22:56   #25
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

The more I think about this the worse it looks...

I have known professional crews over the years, and they are professional (odd that). The captain manages the boat, writes checks from the boat's account, and lives within the budget the owner gives him - and negotiates for exceptional circumstances. He manages the rest of the crew and overseas maintenance as well as operation of the vessel. Things are done, as I said, in a professional manner. This doesn't sound like that.

You have said that you have 7 years with "large white ships", which I take to mean cruise ships (you could have just said so). Apparently you have earned a masters license, but I am guessing you haven't actually skippered professionally. Without experience in professional yachts you will be lucky to get a first mate's berth - which you must know by now. So perhaps as a result you are reluctant to pass this by? Just guessing, but if so you have set yourself up to make a bad decision because youu want this to work. Putting your name on the paperwork as captain exposes you to a lot of liability, which you must lay off on insurance or you are risking your liberty and savings (not to mention any future opportunities).

In my cruising I have encountered quite a few scoundrels who talk a good game, including at least one boat with 3 of them on the way to Columbia to load up (they said to be part of a movie but that was transparently false). If you are set on pursuing this in spite of the warnings here then get a credit report, D&B, criminal history on the owner. Start by Googling his name. Even if that is clean, consider the possibility that he has money because others no longer do.

Seriously: run away from this.

Greg
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Old 05-01-2015, 23:19   #26
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

I just picture you opening the safe when needed, and there in all its glory is 100,000 pesos.
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Old 05-01-2015, 23:25   #27
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

I picture customs opening the safe and finding $100k worth of drugs...
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:23   #28
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Thank you very much for your reply. I have worked on private yachts for the past 7 years of varying sizes, this one is my smallest. I have served as captain on deliveries, including atlantic and pacific crossings, but my full time work for the past 4 years has been as first mate. This is my first "full-time" captain's position. Since it is the smallest boat I have worked on, I am just making sure my instinct is valid, and that this is simply not the way to do things. Thank you everyone for validating my instinct. I will either demand 3rd party or walk.
Again, thanks everyone who replied. Smooth seas and fair winds to all.
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:27   #29
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Also, only I hold the combination to the safe. I know whats inside it, and I know its not enough to cover me, and it doesn't substitute for proof of insurance.
Regarding declaring it, yes, you must declare it. No, they are not permitted to see it under Panamanian flag law, and we do not need to pay taxes on it. Its actually quite simple to cross the border with that much cash if you have the right docs.
Thanks
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:33   #30
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Re: Cruising without Insurance.

Run away. Not only is the owner stupid for not carrying insurance, he's even stupider for telling a relative stranger that he has $100k stashed on his boat. Unless of course he doesn't and he just told you that to satisfy your concern, which makes him a liar.
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