Buying without a Broker?

[fbchristo]

Originally Posted by rgscpat

It seems that the original poster could really use someone knowledgeable to give an intelligent second opinion about the boat and maybe help the OP learn to
"pre-survey" the boat before spending money on the survey and haul-out.

Without knowing the condition of the boat accurately, how does the potential buyer know how good a value this boat is for her or his needs? Perhaps the buyer has been looking at large numbers of similar boats and has been tracking the market closely, but we don't know that.

It would be really nice, if the seller had maintained an on-line or photo/video album of the salvage and repair process with receipts for all materials, and a good description of the repair methods and workmanship, so that a buyer could have some assurance of the quality of the re-build. That would help reduce the fear factor associated with a salvage boat.

Hi Pat- original poster here-

I agree another set of eyes that know what they are looking at would be great. I have been on board the vessel, in fact spent several hours one day, developed questions and spent time a second. I have taken pictures of the rigging work done (new mast and standing rigging as well as front cross support and seagull striker <yes it's a cat>.) I am not a boat builder but am a former contractor and theatrical rigger and to my limited knowledge the work looks solid but will really depend on a surveyor or two; especially on the two new engines added. I am sure I can get a list of repairs and receipts from the current owner he is very open and helpful. The boat is one of three models that we are focused in on for the past several years and I have spent many hours researching (ok killing time at work) on the internet and talking to owners of similar models. I have also been working with a broker who I like and trust and if I don't go for this boat I will most certainly use his/her services, and may even in this case and split or eat the costs if the seller is dead-set against splitting. i feel I am as informed as I can be at this point, with the exception of the legal processes and paper work but all the posts have helped enormously so keep the opinions coming and thanks to all!

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by fbchristo

Hi Pat- original poster here-

I have also been working with a broker who I like and trust

That is the most important part about working with a broker, having someone you like and can trust. That is where brokers prove their worth.

I would still try to get your broker involved in this deal, especially since you trust him and the seller doesn't want to get a broker involved... Most brokers would be willing to work out some type of deal in this sort of a situation, especially if you have a well established relationship.

[letsgetsailing3]

There is nothing stopping you from coming to some arrangement with your broker outside of your boat purchase, if he's agreeable to that and if it would make you more comfortable. Engage him as a consultant or a buyer's broker.

That way you can pay him for his services without entangling the seller.

[austinrick]

The broker I'm buying a Bayfield through now is being extremely helpful, even though he really represents the seller. I consider myself lucky.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by austinrick

The broker I'm buying a Bayfield through now is being extremely helpful, even though he really represents the seller. I consider myself lucky.

The best know that sailors are a close-knit community and that their reputation among sailors count. Make sure your broker is licensed. I had an unlicensed "broker" offer to sell my old boat for me. The hull was separating from the deck, and in fact I had big blisters down the SIDE of the boat. The mast was in danger of coming down, and he was going to try to sell it to some poor unsuspecting beginner.

I sold it for salvage.

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

The best know that sailors are a close-knit community and that their reputation among sailors count. Make sure your broker is licensed. I had an unlicensed "broker" offer to sell my old boat for me. The hull was separating from the deck, and in fact I had big blisters down the SIDE of the boat. The mast was in danger of coming down, and he was going to try to sell it to some poor unsuspecting beginner.

I sold it for salvage.

I can't tell you how many times sellers have tried to hide information like that from my when discussing listing their boat... I've had clients who have asked me, "Do we really need to disclose the partial submersion?"

It takes a truly slimy broker to be willing to try to pull a move like that on a new yacht owner... Way to do the right think Rakuflames on doing the right thing!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

I can't tell you how many times sellers have tried to hide information like that from my when discussing listing their boat... I've had clients who have asked me, "Do we really need to disclose the partial submersion?"

It takes a truly slimy broker to be willing to try to pull a move like that on a new yacht owner... Way to do the right think Rakuflames on doing the right thing!

Thank you. There ARE slimy people out there.

What I did when looking for my first boat was take someone who was NOT a broker but who knew a lot of boats. I paid him the hourly fee he gets for repairing boats to look at them for me.

I looked at a GORGEOUS 33' Cherubini. I wanted that boat from first glance just because the head was laid out soooo well for a boat that size. But we went through it systematically.

The oil in the engine was as thick as peanut butter -- that's not an exaggeration. I can't think of the name of them (no caffeine yet) but the pieces of wood that went under the shrouds on the inside were so dry-rotted that a finger -- not just a screwdriver but a finger -- went easily through them. My friend knew to look there immiediately because he saw the silicon on the deck at the base of the shrouds. To me, newer to boats, that looked like a GOOD thing ... it had upgraded, laminated sails. They were only about a year old, but mold was already growing between the layers, and they were delaminating in places. Sadly, at that point it didn't matter how much I liked the head ... and for $70 I saved myself the cost of a survey on a boat I would not possibly want.

Someone else bought the boat and has been very happy with it, but he had the years and years of accumulated mechanical skills I didn't have and was able to deal with all of this.

When I found the boat I have now I still got a survey, but by spending $70 on each boat that really caught my eye, I only ended up paying for a survey on the boat I ended up buying.

It's not the only way for the buyer to protect him or herself but it worked really well for me.

[Kenomac]

Salvage boat. Insistence on no broker. I'd keep looking if I were you; there are zillions of great boats out there without salvage issues.

Find a buyer's broker and start looking. Both times I've used a buyer's broker, I found that they earned their money twice over by getting us a lower price and keeping us out of trouble.

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by austinrick

The broker I'm buying a Bayfield through now is being extremely helpful, even though he really represents the seller. I consider myself lucky.

If he wants to sell the boat he better be friendly - I didn't understand why you consider yourself lucky.

[RELENTLESS 1]

A note on Surveyors.
Our club just took possession of a Catalina 28 that I and 2 other members sailed back to LA from San Diego last weekend. Good thing we got there early on Friday as the Surveyor on the Hull and Rig missed a LOWER shroud that had several strands flying in the breeze which was visible from the DECK! He also missed the fact that the Compass had no fluid in it. The Engine Surveyor completely missed that the Inlet hose had a 1/4" hole on the inside from rubbing on a bracket. It was VISIBLY streaming water when the motor was running!!
Kudos to the Shelter Island Boat Yard guys who did catch the engine issue and handled it before we got there!!