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Old 04-12-2012, 08:00   #61
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

Okay so I am going over to the marinas to look at these boats in the following weeks. Please give me advice and things to lookout for. Are these boats worth what they owner is asking for. I will pay cash for the boats so will that give me leverage?

Union Cutter 39,900

True North 39,995

Cape George 34,900
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:30   #62
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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True. Hey we all know sailors (not yachtsmen) have sailed for hundreds of years without any motor why do we all insist on them now. I think its a crutch then again I am the rookie with big dreams of removing fossil fuels from my boat and sailing around in the deep.
Well mostly because they had no choice, funnily once they did, they stopped sailing!!.

a good engine is a very very useful addition to any boat.

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Old 04-12-2012, 08:33   #63
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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Originally Posted by Floodhound View Post
Okay so I am going over to the marinas to look at these boats in the following weeks. Please give me advice and things to lookout for. Are these boats worth what they owner is asking for. I will pay cash for the boats so will that give me leverage?

Union Cutter 39,900

True North 39,995

Cape George 34,900
The Union Cutter and the Cape George both show teak decks in the listings. I would be very, very, very cautious with teak decks over 30 years old. First question, teak on top of what? If teak over plywood or teak over cored glass you have a very high chance of rot under the teak. A huge project to fix and would only consider if the boat was the deal of the century. Also, if the teak decks have been sanded and recaulked a couple of times it is likely that the remaining wood is very thin and not much left to hold the screws and bungs. They could be OK if they were religiously maintained and were thicker teak to start but look closely.

Also the ad for the Cape George mentions dry rot in the bulwarks but it's a glass hull so not sure where the wood would be. Another very big red flag. Some older boats have glass hulls but wood cabin tops. Again, unless the deal of the century and they pass a very close inspection for dry rot and leaking I would give them a pass.

For boats of this age, size and some of the problems stated in the listings my first impression is that the prices are high. None of these look like great deals.

One additional comment, 99.9% of all boat sales are cash, whether out of your pocket or from a bank loan or an insurance settlement from MacDonalds for dumping hot coffee in your lap. At the end of the day the seller always gets cash unless you are that 1 in a million that can finagle owner financing. So don't expect that the mention of cash will give you a major negotiating advantage. The main thing you can offer is you are serious buyer ready to promptly close a deal on the right boat.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:38   #64
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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For boats of this age, size and some of the problems stated in the listings my first impression is that the prices are high. None of these look like great deals.
Thanks Skip! So what is a good deal that I can offer them? I am seriously considering the true north but I also think its overpriced can I offer up to a %30 off? Or is that asking too low?
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:25   #65
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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Originally Posted by Floodhound View Post
Okay so I am going over to the marinas to look at these boats in the following weeks. Please give me advice and things to lookout for. Are these boats worth what they owner is asking for. I will pay cash for the boats so will that give me leverage?

Union Cutter 39,900

True North 39,995

Cape George 34,900
The cape george is a very well built hull in general. Not sure about that particular one as some were home finished. I see it's a '74, I didnt even know they built them that far back. Appears to be a woden mast too, so not too sure , may have rot issues in the deck too.
The union's are typical strong Taiwan hulls, but will likely have a lot of rot issues etc in the decks etc., Depending on the year.
For the type of boat you are looking at, it probably just comes down to the one in the best condition and that you like the most.
The True North is a big Plus because it doesnt have teak decks! Much less likely to have severe deck core problems.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:31   #66
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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Originally Posted by Floodhound View Post
Thanks Skip! So what is a good deal that I can offer them? I am seriously considering the true north but I also think its overpriced can I offer up to a %30 off? Or is that asking too low?
Well I don't know that particular brand and model so can't offer specifics. Of course I may be wrong in my assesment of the asking price being high. Analogy, a 30 year old Ferrari is worth a lot more than a 30 year old Volkswagen. Since I don't know the brand a 30 year old (more or less) True North could be a Ferrari, or Mercedes or a Ford Pinto.

First step, google is your friend. Look at what other True Norths are listed at. Try Yachtworld.com, boattrader.com, eBay, craigslist. Go into the negotiation as educated as you can be.

I would then base my offer on what others are listed for, less what you think reasonable discount considering 99% of all sellers list a little high assuming the buyer will negotiate on the price no matter what the ask.

Offering very low may work but sometimes backfires. Boat owners can be emotionally attached to their baby and might feel insulted and walk away from a really low ball offer. Get's into strategy and psychology which is 100% guesswork if you haven't met the actual owner/seller but are dealing with a broker. If you're dealing with a broker they may sometimes be able to offer some insight on the sellers attitude but don't depend on that happening.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:50   #67
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

Okay so I now pinned down a liveaboard slip for a cool 250 a month and it allows up to a 36 foot boat for this price. 2 feet overhang is strictly enforced I was told.

They did mention insurance of 300K with the name of the marina on the policy. Is insurance as easy for a boat as it is with a car. I want to think not and since I am thinking its more difficult what can I expect in this process and how can I get it on the cheap.

By the way you all are a great help! Thank you.
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:58   #68
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

Progressive is easy for liability only.....no survey, nothing special needed.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:13   #69
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

I don't know a thing about the True North, but it looks to of been cared for, but so did our boat and another one we looked at in the sales pictures .

There were a number of things show in the spec sheet that were not working, in not good order and in a couple cases not even there. That gave us some negotiating room, but not a lot. Maybe before you go any further go look at the boat. If you are still interested then start looking for someone good to survey it. In our case we actually went with a marine mechanic that had been in the business for 30+ years. I'm happy about 90% with his survey and would do the same again but we were only getting liability insurance. If we would of wanted full coverage then his survey wouldn't of passed.

The one thing I would of done different is to have the boat hauled. I saw the work order where the boat had had blister repair and barrier paint applied and made the bad assumption the bottom was ok. Well after hauling the boat where we now have it the bottom had blisters. They had repaired the bottom, but only put barrier paint on the repairs and it then over a couple years blistered other places. This has resulted in us spending about $2500 we didn't count on. Get the boat hauled out.

I think with any boat that old I'd budget another $12,000 to $18,000 to really get the boat into a safe and nice boat to do long distance cruising on, but it sounds like you have the time and the money in the future to do that. Things like better navigation gear, sails, thru-hulls, more canvas (bimini for sure), batteries, solar, maybe new tanks, etc. will add up quick. Still for under $50,000 you might end up with a really nice long distance cruiser if you can do the work yourself.

If the boat isn't exactly what you want keep looking. There are a lot of boats out there. On the price if you are dealing with a broker see if you can find out how long the boat has been listed and also if previous offers had been made on it that were turned down if he will share that with you.

Good luck,

Sum
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Old 05-12-2012, 19:45   #70
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

I have an offer on the table and it looks like ill be looking over the boat this weekend. Wish me luck.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:05   #71
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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Originally Posted by Artif View Post
O.K into the hornets nest
Simplicity, light enough to row ( engine not required) plenty of deck space, separate accommodation, shallow draft, proven sea worthiness.
Cheap to buy

James Wharram Designs | Unique sailing catamarans, self-build and professional built boats of distinction..

Buy second hand, not build your own obviously.


Runs for cover, very very fast
Why run for cover?

He wants to sail the world in a 36' boat designed to be left at anchor.

First, my tongue in cheek answer. Trying to get your attention. The next answer will be less tongue in cheek.

OK, engineer. From this engineer with ZERO sailing experience to an engineer with little sailing experience. I had an 8' dinghy growing up, and various 'things' called rafts my brother and I built. Sometimes with Dad's help. Dad's stuff usually floated better.

I got hooked on an engineering question I saw posted a few days ago. So, I have googled and learned much of the sailing terminology. In just a couple of days.

Several things you have posted make me pause and think, "What?"

One of which was a desire to sail blue water with little experience.

So, I am gonna ask some simple engineering (project management) questions.

1. Not a major question: How is it $45K is the budget for this when funded by a retiring senior engineer and retired lawyer out of Seattle?

2. What is the longest you have been at sea (not harbor). (b) what were the largest swells you sailed into? (c) the strongest winds? (d) the deepest waters?

3. How will you train a 3-year old to stay in a life jacket? The kid will end up in the water - guarantee it.

4. If you are a novice sailor, without power, how will you navigate? Communicate? In the old days, they didn't go through shipping lanes. Those who do today, run the risk of a collision - if they do not have POWER on board.

You have to HAVE LIGHTS at night .... Or, you will meet another 'sailor' from the west coast who is cutting their carbon emissions ....

And unless you are made of iron, you need power to run the bilge ... pump ...

5. How will you make water? You have to have fresh water, or you die. Forget the stink part, you can wash in salt water - as long as you are not on the west coast usa, or near most third world cities - human and pet waste makes those waters unsafe.

And you were worried about the smell of diesel.

6. What courses have you taken (Instructor led) to get you ready for moving from a 26' trailerable to a 36'?

7. Why don't you have a GREAT friend locally who is an accomplished sailor?

8. WHY are you looking into blue water sailing in a 36'?

9. WHO taught you to sail?

10. WHO taught your 3-year old to swim?

Going back to those glory days of sail, "When men were made of iron and the ships of wood," they grew up sailing.

And often lost half of the ship's compliment .... And sank a lot ....

Which half of your 'ship,' 'Captain' are you willing to sacrifice?

That was a 'design' question.

I read what you have written, and I ask myself, "Is he really an engineer? And he doesn't want an engine that WORKS?"

Or, "What kind of engineer doesn't want something that works? On board something that is BLOATED and does not work well except when at anchor doing nothing?"


OK. Turning down the engineering "What is this guy writing about?" To a more solid engineer perspective.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:20   #72
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

OK, you need a sailing mentor who has done what you are trying to do.

A PHYSICAL sailor, not over the internet. You can contact him or her over the internet on your voyage.

But, you need a ship's Captain who can guide you and teach you how to make the choices you are looking at. It would not hurt to have a small 'crew' to assist him as you learn.

You should have your 'Captain' help you 'shake down your crew.' Your wife and 3-year old.

You have to take a shake down trip to at least San Francisco, I would recommend Los Angeles, but AT LEAST as far as San Fran.

Yes, you think you can do that on your own.

But, my gut tells me you have not been on a 'shakedown cruise' ever .... If you do not know sailing terminology, you have not been on a shakedown.

You are an ENGINEER.

"THROW money at it, if it doesn't work."

Right.

You say you have 3 months?

You need an experienced mentor on board with you now. You need several over night shake down cruises. Before you try San Fran.

Hire it done. That is the only way.

I hope, and pray, you get this. Hard headed is one thing on an engineering project, you do not have to get along with your mates. But, on board ship, you are the Captain. And it is your responsibility to bring your crew home.

Not the boat's. Yours.

IMHO.

I hope you get this. I really do. Because there have been way too many West Coast dreamers (& East Coast) who have set off on voyages and not come back.

Just going to San Fran, you NEED (do not read that 'want') a real blue water vessel. You need an engine. Even with an engine (and if you do not have a working engine, you are NOT an engineer, IMHO) you cannot guarantee you won't be moved out into blue water.

Godspeed!

Wayne
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Old 06-12-2012, 14:01   #73
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

El_Guero Wow,

I am taken back that as an engineer yourself you have made many assumptions and with virtually no solid data to back this assumption. Allow me to answer some of your silly questions.

1. I am not retiring (traditionally speaking) I am young and will continue to work while sailing.
2. I do have blue water experience I am a WAR vet as I sailed in the US NAVY.
3. $45K is my bottom line so that I may have capital to continue living aboard.
4. I have spent years at sea - 32 days was the longest period without stopping.
5. I will have power as this is simple to obtain. Who said I would not want power?
6. I will make water by rubbing two sticks together real slow. Try it.
7. My 3 year old in fact loves to sail and enjoys wearing his life jacket, he says look dad I am a sailor.
8. I have taken a few sailing and seamanship courses one at the local college here.
9. I don't have any friends I am a nerd engineer and frown on social situation.
10. I was taught to sail by instructors, myself, and books. As an engineer I can read and learn from what I am reading.
11. I tough my son to swim, in fact he was born under water and has loved it since birth.
12. The terminology I was referring to is not what you are thinking. I know what a mast is and a boom etc, what I lack is the vericulum needed to engineer the hull of a sailboat.
13. A full keel boat does not mean sitting at anchor all the time. You my friend need a hug!

I will offer my knowledge to you and others if they feel the need to validate my engineering claim. Ask me about voltage dividers, low-pass filters, impedance matching, RF communications, CE approval, PCB designs, FR4 perhaps or what about the folding of space and time dilation and how its related to your TV screen?Want to talk about bubble sorts, PID's, kalman filters or clock jitters?

IS THIS FORUM ALWAYS THIS RUTHLESS? All I wanted was help deciding on a boat and next thing I know I have the FBI asking me things like can my son swim. Why don't I have enough money etc.
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Old 06-12-2012, 15:17   #74
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

Floodhound, First I must admit that I merely scanned all the post above and I've likey missed some important facts. I have lived aboard and crusied with my wife & children from infants to adulthood on slow, full keeled, wide beamed, marginally performing sailboats for more than forty years. Though I personally favor the engine for breaking inlets and manuevering in close quarters a prudent and patient sailor can get by without. I would choose the low maintenance of aluminum spars and a solid fiberglass hull (some of those Dreadnoughts had balsa cored hulls and wood spars). I know you're looking at other boats know, but I did always love the Tahiti Ketch design. Nothing goes to windward like a 747,- choose your battles!
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Old 06-12-2012, 15:24   #75
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Please tell me I can liveaboard and be happy most of the time. This is all I want, I want my wife to no longer have to work and frankly it is her that wants to sail. You seem to know and it is you who will either discourage me or encourage me. Tell me what is wrong with a low mainlanders full keel old boat?
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