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Old 29-11-2012, 18:07   #46
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Smuggler I have in fact!

There was a company a bit ago that I looked into that manufactures motors, tornado I think the brand name is. I think the motors were relative inexpensive and heck I am a wiring wizard. I know the battery's will keep cost up but shoot I won't have to smell oil and fumes with a Diesel engine. I still want to sail without a motor just because of the safety factor. In other words, if the motor fails I will be confident I can still keep sailing without any real panic.
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Old 29-11-2012, 18:21   #47
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This aversion to an engine is problematic me thinks.

I can and do sail off of and onto the anchor, I have sailed into a slip (not our current one, too tight and too narrow a channel), and can short tack up a channel if need be.

But, when out cruising there are so many areas that are either inaccessible without an engine, or great places to be that you can become wind bound in during less than desirable weather. While you don't need a large engine, the benefits of having a way too be the boat for hours on end is hugely beneficial.

Remember that in the great days of sail, ships either sat wind bound for weeks on end, or employed huge crews in the boats to tow the ship out.

Sailing in reef strewn waters there are numerous great anchorages while being accessible under sail are not pleasant to sail into in most weather.
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Old 29-11-2012, 19:28   #48
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I should rename this thread rookie wants to sail engineless. Lol.

You know if you have a lot of time ( as i will ) to sit and wait for the right conditions to get where you are going then why not? I will still have a ding, oars, ground tackle so an engine is just something I don't want.

That said I am not going to buy my boat and yank the engine out the next day, it's going to take time. But it will be on my priority list.

Back on topic and for those that are board or just would like to help a poor bastard sailor decide on a boat here are more I looked over.

Alberg
True north
Ericson (spelled wrong maybe)
Union cutter
Island (something or rather)

Ill put up links and details as soon as I get to my computer.
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Old 29-11-2012, 20:08   #49
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Re: Buying wisdom needed

Hey Flood..like others here I sailed a 36' metre boat without engine for many years in all conditions.. it certainly teaches seamanship. And we certainly had our moments stuck on sandbanks without wind when the tide took us on.. (we had an anchor - but usually deployed too late other than to stop further advancement onto the bank !!) & crew on the bow to "fend off" when coming into a pen.. also sailed to & from swing moorings a great deal easier. At the end of the day it does give one a great sense of achievement.

I will go electric at some point in time.. however, I suspect that it will not be an inexpensive exercise and will be a "hybrid" system still requiring power generation - but at significantly lower fuel consumption than I currently have running both genny & main engines.

I understand where you are coming from, however, initially I would be inclined to leave things as they are & "suck it & see" for a while. As someone that has been there & done that in respect to family sailing, it is a good plan to indroduce the "family" into the whiles of coastal / ocean sailing very gently. The last thing you need is a "mutiny" !! See how the family adapt to moving from shore life..

Good luck..
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Old 30-11-2012, 08:22   #50
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Re: Buying wisdom needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floodhound View Post
I still want to sail without a motor just because of the safety factor. In other words, if the motor fails I will be confident I can still keep sailing without any real panic.
If the skipper lets his or her skills lapse and is helpless on a sailboat without use of a motor then that would be the fault of the skipper, not the motor. I would say that in many situations the engine itself would be a safety factor.

Just because the motor's there doesn't mean you have to use it every time you get on the boat. It's a tool, just like a chart or GPS or fathometer. If you follow the logic you use regarding a motor then you would not use a GPS because you would forget how to use a chart or not use a fathometer because you might forget how to use a lead.
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Old 30-11-2012, 09:32   #51
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Re: Buying wisdom needed

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.. I still want to sail without a motor just because of the safety factor..
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
. I would say that in many situations the engine itself would be a safety factor...
Can we say maybe an extreme safety factor. We sat for 3 days in a remote side canyon on Lake Powell with no way to communicate when I fractured my shoulder and screwed up my rotator cuff because I couldn't start the outboard and my wife also couldn't pull start it....

08-09 Sailing Lake Powell page 9

..... We now have electric start.

You don't need to use an engine, but if you are hurt and your wife and child can't sail the boat or they are hurt and conditions mean you can't sail the boat, you or they will be mighty thankful you have one.

I still believe for you to get the help you need on choosing a boat you need to define where and how you envision using the boat,

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Old 30-11-2012, 11:57   #52
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Good point guys.
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Old 30-11-2012, 12:02   #53
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So my plan is to live / travel and enjoy my boat. Starting in the Puget Sound sailing and learning all we can. Then we want to make our way I to the ocean and head towards the equator. From there we would like to visit relatives and keep sailing where the wind blows us. We intend on homeschooling our son, my wife and I both have degrees she a lawyer and RN and I an engineer.

Hope that helps.
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Old 30-11-2012, 12:15   #54
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Re: Buying wisdom needed

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I do plan to dock and I think this is fairly simple to do without a engine, in most cases or generally speaking. I also think that making water is a problem but since there are other ways to get / store / make water without a motor I will solve this problem by other means.

Floodhound everybody has a different definition of what sailing is. For some it means an afternoon on the lake with a small dinghy. For others it is sitting at the dock with a cocktail. Others think of staying outside of civilized areas for months or years at a time. Some may just want to live on a boat in a marina. We don't know what your definition is so it is hard to help.


True. Hey we all know sailors (not yachtsmen) have sailed for hundreds of years without any motor why do we all insist on them now. I think its a crutch then again I am the rookie with big dreams of removing fossil fuels from my boat and sailing around in the deep.

Yes but that was before the advent of marina's and long narrow channels. It is not impossible to sail w/o an engine but you may have to anchor miles away from a store. Look up Pardey. They are big proponents of engineless travel and have done it. Maybe that is your defintion of sailing.

.
Boats that sail well are usually not as comfortable underneath.
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Old 30-11-2012, 12:35   #55
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Re: Buying wisdom needed

Floodhound:

4 months is not a lot of time to decide on a boat and to find one in good condition. Ih your price range I would look at an Islander 36. Here is a link. Islander 36 Association, sailing, racing, cruising and maintaining sailboats They are very good sailing boats and Zac Sunderland sailed one around the world. In the sailing magazine Latitude 38 I saw one for sail for $8k. Now I imagine that you can buy a better one for around $20k and a real good one for $45k. But if you spend all of your money on the boat there won't be anything left to repair/customize the boat. There are a few good websites and books on the subject of inexpensive bluewater boats:Twenty Affordable Sailboats To Take You Anywhere: Gregg Nestor, John Vigor: 9780939837724: Amazon.com: Books and Amazon.com: Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere (9780939837328): John Vigor: Books This is a good starting point as well Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising Good luck with your search
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Old 30-11-2012, 17:46   #56
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Quote:
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Floodhound:

4 months is not a lot of time to decide on a boat and to find one in good condition. Ih your price range I would look at an Islander 36. Here is a link. Islander 36 Association, sailing, racing, cruising and maintaining sailboats They are very good sailing boats and Zac Sunderland sailed one around the world. In the sailing magazine Latitude 38 I saw one for sail for $8k. Now I imagine that you can buy a better one for around $20k and a real good one for $45k. But if you spend all of your money on the boat there won't be anything left to repair/customize the boat. There are a few good websites and books on the subject of inexpensive bluewater boats:Twenty Affordable Sailboats To Take You Anywhere: Gregg Nestor, John Vigor: 9780939837724: Amazon.com: Books and Amazon.com: Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere (9780939837328): John Vigor: Books This is a good starting point as well Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising Good luck with your search
Ok I forgot to mention that we will continue to have income once we move aboard so repairs and living cost will be managed. The only urgency is finding a boat in 3 months, but push comes to shove we can move into a small home and continue to save for the right boat.

Thanks for the links ill begin reading them her in a bit and Ill post some links as I promised.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:16   #57
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

Here ya go! http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1097772
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:27   #58
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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Originally Posted by Floodhound View Post
So my plan is to live / travel and enjoy my boat. Starting in the Puget Sound sailing and learning all we can. Then we want to make our way I to the ocean and head towards the equator. From there we would like to visit relatives and keep sailing where the wind blows us. We intend on homeschooling our son, my wife and I both have degrees she a lawyer and RN and I an engineer.

Hope that helps.
Sum's point about his injury is very important. I "met" Sum & his wife Ruth on another forum, and his writeups in his website are very informative.

If you're going to start in the Puget Sound, my friends who sail there comment repeatedly about currents.

Things for you to consider:

1. Safety.
2. If you go electric, how will you recharge? Generator? That's an engine, too.
3. Water (in addition to fuel) requires either a watermaker which draws lots of power, or a trip to a dock.

It all comes down to your personal approach, and I sail my boat more than most people, but I believe you really need to rethink this engine-less issue and agree with a previous comment about trying it for awhile before you rip anything out.

Another case: when or if you get to San Francisco, there are only a handful of anchorages inside the Bay. no water no power.

How to get to land? A dinghy. And everything I've read about cruising and anchoring (here on the west coast & Mexico) pretty much says you'd need a dinghy with an outboard motor - another engine.

On the way down the coast, you'd be precluded from entering a lot of harbors without an engine.

Last week we were out 5 or 6 miles to the eastern end of the shipping channel into SF Bay. Had a great sail out, but the wind died on the way in. We fired up the motor. Had the ebb going out and flood coming back, but given that the entrance to the Bay is three nm alone from Pt. Bonita to the bridge, and major shipping traffic coming and going, engineless is NOT the condition I would want to have been in. Forecasts? 10 knot N winds all day. Reality? Not so much.

Think of your family's safety.

Anyway, good luck.
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Old 01-12-2012, 13:52   #59
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

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Not to mention many harbours, fairways and marinas where sailing into the berth isn't permitted.

Dave
Plus that many places are not designed to be accessible under sail alone - indeed many seem designed to be a challenge under power! My guess is that you have become comfortable with no engine on your current boat in your present locale so one thing you may have overlooked is that will be far eaiser to have sail only when entering familiar ports / areas, rather than dealing with the unknown (no matter how well researched).

I would personally suggest buying a boat with a reliable engine - and then use as much or as little as you choose. The key is a reliable engine.

But if you are firmly wedded to the idea of no-engine, then (apart from buying a boat that sails very well!) I would suggest it makes no financial sense to buy a boat with a working engine and then remove it. Far better to buy a boat with no engine (or the more likely scenario of an engine that has gone badly "pop") as no engine really guts the value of a boat (it's not simply the cost of a replacement lump, it's the ancilliaries as well as the fitting - and with engines on a larger boat most buyers would want the full cost discounted from the sale price. at least)..........of course if you then find out that no engine was not such a great idea then have to pay the penalty $$$ .....but could instead take a punt on experimenting with an electricpower install (a few good threads already on CF).
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Old 02-12-2012, 17:40   #60
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Re: Buying Wisdom Needed

O.K into the hornets nest
Simplicity, light enough to row ( engine not required) plenty of deck space, separate accommodation, shallow draft, proven sea worthiness.
Cheap to buy

James Wharram Designs | Unique sailing catamarans, self-build and professional built boats of distinction..

Buy second hand, not build your own obviously.


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