Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-01-2015, 01:17   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: the Med
Boat: Nauta 54' by Scott Kaufman/S&S - 1989
Posts: 1,066
Images: 3
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

Dear all, great post

Asking price is a guideline only, subject to the findings of the survey, intended to check state of affairs and any structural defects of top of normal wear&tear.

Have in mind that:
- it does not matter whether the owner told/knew y/n things... just Facts count...
- i have little faith that even a serious 6hrs survey may assess everything in full. Better, the contrary holds true!

Therefore, after you pay for survey, reach new consensus price or withdraw, and have a Reservation Clause about hidden surprises for say 10-20% of final agreed price, payable later.

the more so, depending on age, status, foreseeable complications and size...

surveys are good at assessing ideal market value and at detecting hull/motor failures only.
Surveyors know little about rigging (yes!) and much less about fixings all around. They come in with a 150usd humidity tester, a lamp and a 4hrs check list of little use, as any boat has its own story....buhm!!.. good only to ascertain hull/blade problems, on dry deck.

a shipyard worker is much more useful than an engineer/expert, believe me

You will regret you cant reasonably ask for a 30+% R.clause :-)
__________________

__________________
TheThunderbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 01:31   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: the Med
Boat: Nauta 54' by Scott Kaufman/S&S - 1989
Posts: 1,066
Images: 3
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

@Cheechako

I truly believe it is everyone's story, in earnest
It must be known well in advance

It also offers room for setting/fitting your own boat the way you want <3

And again, previous owner and salesmen not only have opposite, diminutive, different view from yours, they also are simply ignorant, light-minded or plainly in bad faith in their words/beliefs.
__________________

__________________
TheThunderbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 02:28   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 134
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

I agree
A surveyer is no garanty and I have to deal with the consequences afterwards.
Also very difficult ...every boats has itīs own story.
The seller might know a lot more but he wants to sell
The reservation clause is the only safe guard I can think of that is valid and I just walk away if this is not accepted.
If the seller is honest he will accept. He also should understand that there might be issues hidden that even he is not aware of and much less the surveyer and this could afect the value.

I would use the surveyer first to establish a fair market value.....meaning this..... if she is in perfect shape

Everything else comes afterwards
Good shape is not good enough. Marine enviroment is very agressive.
Good means KNOWING how much time is left until I have to replace it

But I think the real tough question is evaluating how much itīs gonna cost to bring her up to date and that requieres a lot of knowledge.

If You can explain how much it cost to fix the issues the seller wonīt be able to deny the consequences towards value.
In case of useless endless discussion get reliable estimates
Seller shows no motivation towards that idear ???
Walk away.....there are more boats than buyers

A good idear befor You buy a boat is to think about....
one of those days You might want to sell it
__________________
Now or Never
warrior 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 03:29   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posts: 17
Send a message via Skype™ to Capex
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

"Never give the seller a full copy of the survey, only give them the information based on the points you are negotiating (or even better summarize it yourself). Many years ago I had a deal fall through and the seller used my full survey (which I naively emailed to his broker) that cost me $1500 to sell the boat to a new buyer."
Do take note of this!
The survey is a contract between you and the surveyor ONLY and should not be fully disclosed to any other person. Failure to do so will result in the above.
As has been previously mentioned, surveys will not disclose all defects as surveyors are limited to "non destructive testing". Just be aware that the older a boat the greater the likelihood that it has higher percentages of moisture within the hull layup as the protective coatings (e.g gelcoat, anti fouling etc) are not completely waterproof. Also be aware that timber sandwich material such as planking or Balsa core will rot. Foam sandwich will not. However, I have seen boats with foam sandwich core where water has invaded due to lack of filling of kerfs in the original layup. Buy the newest boat that you can afford.
__________________
Capex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 09:17   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 134
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

Just be aware that the older a boat the greater the likelihood that it has higher percentages of moisture within the hull layup as the protective coatings (e.g gelcoat, anti fouling etc) are not completely waterproof. Also be aware that timber sandwich material such as planking or Balsa core will rot. Foam sandwich will not. However, I have seen boats with foam sandwich core where water has invaded due to lack of filling of kerfs in the original layup. Buy the newest boat that you can afford.[/QUOTE]

Newer boats I understand less than 10 years and the price is still very high. After 10 years things start to change substancially.
What is Your experience / opinion of boats between 10 and 25 years in regards to the mentioned problems ?
In my opinion here it shows up what happened in the first 10 years and depending things can get expensive or the boat is still in mint condition and there might be the biggest difference in regards to price/value
Boats older than that are truly old wich does not mean itīs a bad boat but itīs getting a lot more difficult to maintain the value compared to the money being invested and also orginal spares /maintanance costs are rather to be expected to rise.
In regards to spares I expect things to get worse and up grating will be more a question of substituting/modifying
I like modifying but I hate buying a modified boat
__________________
Now or Never
warrior 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 20:04   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posts: 17
Send a message via Skype™ to Capex
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior 90 View Post
Just be aware that the older a boat the greater the likelihood that it has higher percentages of moisture within the hull layup as the protective coatings (e.g gelcoat, anti fouling etc) are not completely waterproof. Also be aware that timber sandwich material such as planking or Balsa core will rot. Foam sandwich will not. However, I have seen boats with foam sandwich core where water has invaded due to lack of filling of kerfs in the original layup. Buy the newest boat that you can afford.
Newer boats I understand less than 10 years and the price is still very high. After 10 years things start to change substancially.
What is Your experience / opinion of boats between 10 and 25 years in regards to the mentioned problems ?
In my opinion here it shows up what happened in the first 10 years and depending things can get expensive or the boat is still in mint condition and there might be the biggest difference in regards to price/value
Boats older than that are truly old wich does not mean itīs a bad boat but itīs getting a lot more difficult to maintain the value compared to the money being invested and also orginal spares /maintanance costs are rather to be expected to rise.
In regards to spares I expect things to get worse and up grating will be more a question of substituting/modifying
I like modifying but I hate buying a modified boat[/QUOTE]

From my own experience, boats older than 10 years will start to show moisture levels from 14 - 30 % in various areas of the same boat. Boats with teak cap rails over the hull deck joint are particularly bad as moisture has entered underneath the timber and in some cases has even reached the keel area. I have also seen the situation where the moisture has become quite large in volume as it collects within the ballast area of a moulded keel boat. This can take months to dry out once discovered. Bolt on keels definitely have an advantage in this situation.
__________________
Capex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 20:35   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 134
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

THXs Capex

I am not a profi just a carefull man hunting my boat

Had a couple of boats but never any problem of that sort.
Defenitly I would not want that kind of issue because once You have it in a boat it can show up in many places.
With my tecnical understanding I also would not like to deal with this kind of problem. Very difficult to overlook. To me it would mean checking every inch on the boat.
How do You fix it to make shure itīs fixed ?
I mean not just glasing over so You donīt see it anymore ?
How can You spot if the boat had such a problem specially if the boat was stored on dry dock for longer time ?
Definitly will add that to my check list from now on
__________________
Now or Never
warrior 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 21:01   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posts: 17
Send a message via Skype™ to Capex
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

This one of the most difficult problems to try and discover as a surveyor. Without being able to test drill a hole, you will only get an indication by using a moisture meter and an IR camera. Even then the full extent of the problem will only be revealed by exploratory "surgery". This is why I keep saying, "only buy boat a boat less than 10 years old" unless you want to employ a competent surveyor on every boat you look at.
Boat values drop rapidly at first after new purchase but level off after about 5 years until they reach about 20 years and then they don't drop very much at all.
Good luck in your search and remember, its only money! http://www.cruisersforum.com/images/.../whistling.gif
__________________
Capex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 22:32   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 134
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs



I can see why You insist on the subject

Well, like You said surgery would be inevitable but can You at least detect the problems with the mentioned methods

What posibilities are there to fix the problem ?
Is dry dock and resealing an efective method to prevent and also a posibility to fix ?
Iīm shure there are quiete a lot of boats out there with the owners not even knowing about the time bomb.
What happens to those boats once the problem is obvious ?
I can imagen there are some serious issues with insurance once it is oficial.
Of cause nobody will want to know oficial before the boat is sold
__________________
Now or Never
warrior 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 23:04   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posts: 17
Send a message via Skype™ to Capex
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

You are absolutely right. Nobody wants to find out until after the boat is sold! Mind you, many owners will have their suspicions but you will never actually find out until there is that gush of water when the first surgery is attempted.
The main thing with fibreglass boats is that everything can be repaired satisfactorily if the right amount of time is taken and the money is spent. Therein lies the rub as most people have little of either and try to do the work on a shoestring. This leads to poorly repaired boats and bad feelings.
Proper repairs can be made by cutting open any suspect areas, drying either mechanically or over time, then replacing the fibreglass with modern E Glass and epoxy. The repair will actually be more sound than the original as the original was probably polyester or vinyl ester resin and the repair uses epoxy which is 5 times stronger than either and there have been improvements in fibreglass as well.
No more woven roving that is almost impossible to wet out thoroughly!
__________________
Capex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 23:43   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 134
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

Well, I certainly like true better than new repairs.
From the distance it sounds more like good skills and lots of tons of time than money to do a good job.
Or is that the wrong conclusion ?
A boat with an extensive need for refit requires a lot of time anyway
__________________
Now or Never
warrior 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-01-2015, 23:58   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posts: 17
Send a message via Skype™ to Capex
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

Yes you are correct. Having people with the skills is the first prerequisite. Time equates to money if the boat is on an expensive hardstand.
We are lucky here in Asia as there are some very skilled workers (thanks to those of us who build and built boats here!) and some of the hard stands are not too expensive. This means that everything is possible and at the end of a refit, you are confident that you have a good boat.
One thing that ALWAYS happens when refitting older boats is that the repair will always cost double the money and time as you find new work that you had not initially anticipated, that must be done before you put the boat back together again. Refits take twice as long to do as a new build because you are pulling the boat part and the rebuilding it so I agree with you that its better to not have to do all this right from the start, hence my saying, buy as new as you can afford.
__________________
Capex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 01:43   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 134
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

THXs for the advice

You really have a point there

Had a guy completle restoring a 45 Camper Nicholson at the dock of my house.
Took him allmost a year. He was a genius at skills. Dominated all aspects. Also allready sailed many years.He allready spent some 6 month on drydock before.
He pretended to live a bord afterwards. I asume he did this for himself. Donīt know how much money he spent but including his time I doubt that will ever gonna get the money back.

I think if I decide to get envolved in doing anything I should stick to what is visible and managable for a short time table. Basics about boat must be sound. Components like engines, gensets, winches etc but nothing like issues with hull / structures
Would You recomand a retrofit of the complete rigging on a 40-50 fet boat as a visible project? Here I would include pulling the mast
__________________
Now or Never
warrior 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 04:46   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posts: 17
Send a message via Skype™ to Capex
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

Insurance companies generally rely upon the surveyors report and his recommendation regarding the rigging is accepted. However, insurance companies generally require any boat to have had a survey within the last 6 months, if the boat is 10 years or older, before they will put it on their books. if its already on their books, they don't usually worry too much unless the boat has a poor claims record.
I always recommend any purchaser to change the wire rigging if its over 10 years old. Some people get 20 years out of their rigging, but many don't and 10 seems to be the magic number. The cost of replacing the wire on a 40 ft boat here is only about $US 5-8,000.
I would not pull the mast unless there is corrosion around the step or there appears to be a bend that should not be there.
__________________
Capex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-2015, 05:08   #30
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,326
Re: Buying a Boat -- Survey Repairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Challo View Post
I wonder if you could offer me some guidance as to what kinds of things I should expect the seller to repair/pay for and what customarily should be my responsibility.
You can't "expect" the seller to repair/pay for anything. But you can ask him to and he they wouldn't you can walk away.

And don't let your surveyor put BS items in the report because the insurance company will just blindly make you do them.
__________________

__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
buying, repairs, survey

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Survey - how important when buying a boat Jd1 Boat Ownership & Making a Living 29 23-04-2016 12:18
Adhesive for Making Boat Repairs Cotemar Construction, Maintenance & Refit 10 09-02-2011 13:47
Boat Repairs in the Charleston / Beaufort, SC Area Hannah on 'Rita T' Atlantic & the Caribbean 3 06-12-2010 08:13
Buying a Catana - What to Look for During Survey ? Poozer Multihull Sailboats 8 03-09-2010 19:53
Buying and the survey. settlednomad General Sailing Forum 10 20-04-2009 20:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.