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Old 18-07-2012, 19:58   #31
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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Originally Posted by The Blue Heron View Post
Factor, what "Anectdotal" evidence? Mine was factual fiscal and costly. You have taken a pot shot and missed with your ignorant comment. My deal involved a boat the Broker was listed as both selling agent and buyers broker. I identified a conflict of interest VERY early in the negotiations and pointed it out. The repairs on my boat were negotiated in good faith on my part from 300 miles away and my broker had a fiscal duty to ensure the repairs were complete and satisfactory. They were NOT. of course I found out when I had to haul my boat out for another matter that was also the brokers responsibility. So before you place a blind bet on the track, you would do well to take a walk through the paddocks and see what your betting on.. get my meaning?

I have been pretty COC compliant by not naming names...
With all due respect, you need to do some reading on survey methodology and anecdotal evidence. What you describe, i.e. one or two persons exeprience is entirely within the definition of "Anecdotal Evidence". My comment was not ignorant, yours however? Another term you use with happy abandon is due diligence, I suspect you need to read up on it as well.

As for your experience, perhaps you have learnt the value of independent surveyors. Maybe your experience is cultural, maybe its only american brokers?, Maybe its boat related, Maybe its only power boat brokers or monohull brokers.

Certainly Australian Multihull brokers are all wonderful. Thats my anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal evidence suggests that some customers have little or no morals as well.

Anyway - out of this thread. Last word, - dont use a broker if thats how you feel. There is no law that says you must.
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Old 18-07-2012, 20:02   #32
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Hey, skip!
"To be more specific, I knew brokers that were lying, cheating, dishonest scumbags. " On behalf of the Trojan Corporation I must protest your defamatory comparison of our products to boat brokers and ask you to cease and desist from comparing our products to boat brokers, even to 10% of boat brokers, in any such way except to say that everyone should have and use them. <WEG>
Well, to paraphrase I am hoist by my own petard. I sincerely apologize to the Trojan company (not the boat builders by the way) and their ilk for comparing them and their fine products to a form of life as lowly as a yacht broker.

And thank you for injecting a little humor into the thread.
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Old 18-07-2012, 20:29   #33
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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I also would see that supporting evidence is abundant and I doubt we would want to place a poll here, because Brokers would poll behind Congress.
I might have to argue that point. There are a few exceptions but on the whole I would rate most members of Congress about the same level as a Somali pirate.

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Skipmac,
after some thought, you are correct in that not all Brokers are Used Car Salesmen, some are New Car Salesmen. Perhaps it is unfair to paint all Brokers with the same brush. I will concede that point and will apologize to you as I feel it is due.


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Originally Posted by The Blue Heron View Post
are there good ones? Certainly. Are they on the whole ethical? I doubt it. Not when it comes to putting money in the pocket.
Hard to say. Thinking back to my time in the business which was 35 years ago and based strictly on the brokers I dealt with closely enough to form an accurate opinion I think boatpoker was somewhere in the ballpark. I can think of 3 or 4 that were scrupulously honest, would go the extra mile to help the buyer, offer full disclosure of all information they had available, and work through the end of the deal to make sure there were no last minute screw ups that ended up burning the buyer (or seller). I can think of a similar number that would lie, cheat and say or do whatever it took to sell any boat they thought they could foist off onto some customer. Might be a good one or a lemon, they didn't care, as long as they got the commission.

Then I can think of 10-12 that were not dishonest but did not put out much more effort than it took to put a deal together. If they were aware of a problem with a boat they would make the information available to the buyer but it was up to the buyer to make use of that or any other information as to how significant it might be.

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As for my survey.. The issues with the Broker were as a result of the finding of the survey and the Broker's lack of due diligence and ensuring the arrangement was satisfactory to all parties. From the showing to the offer to the closing it was a pain in the ass and I had to cajole and prod the entire way except when it came to escrow and then BLAM! Broker was Johnny on the spot. In fact, I hold the seller in no ill regard and we email often about answering any questions I have about the boat. The Broker on the other hand used bush league crap with me when he had no cause.. he let greed be his motivator and lost a great opportunity for his business to get exposure in a positive light. Instead he went for the easy money..
It is possible that you fell into what I consider one of the dirty secrets and worst practices in the business, using the broker or seller's surveyor. When I was in the business it was common knowledge that a certain large, very well known and highly respected surveying firm would almost never fail a boat. They were careful enough that any really serious or glaring problems would be duly noted but problems that were not dangerous, life threatening or at immediate risk of sinking or major damage to the boat would be glossed over. Not ignored altogether but the survey would be written in such a way that a naive buyer might not realize the implication of what it said.

Then there was the toughest surveyor in town. When I first found him he was the only surveyor in south FL that actually climbed the mast on a sailboat to inspect the rigging. Then he told everything straight up to the buyer. I used to say I lost some deals using him but I never lost the customer.

Too bad you ran afoul of one of the bad ones. 20/20 hindsight perhaps you should have fired him or her or sued after the fact.
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Old 18-07-2012, 20:38   #34
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
And you know this because you have personally examined thousands of these boats to verify the descriptions are false?

NOTE: I am not saying that the descriptions are false or true, just pointing out that you are saying this as a statement of fact when the statement is entirely unsubstantiated.
How could I be stating this as a fact, as I posed it as a question. Of course we don't have rigorous studies on this subject. Rigorous study people have better things to do. So in your opinion are the descriptions truthful and representative of a highly ethical profession? Or do you want to wait for the NIH study to come out?
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Old 18-07-2012, 20:50   #35
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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How could I be stating this as a fact, as I posed it as a question.
Well in your original post it certainly read like you were using the ads on yachtworld as an example of a larger dataset of bad information to refute the argument about one example as anecdotal evidence, making it more of a rhetorical question than a real question but if you want to say otherwise I won't argue the point.


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Of course we don't have rigorous studies on this subject. Rigorous study people have better things to do. So in your opinion are the descriptions truthful and representative of a highly ethical profession? Or do you want to wait for the NIH study to come out?
Already said I wasn't trying to make any claims about whether or not the ads were true or false. Wasn't my point.
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Old 18-07-2012, 23:57   #36
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
And you know this because you have personally examined thousands of these boats to verify the descriptions are false?

NOTE: I am not saying that the descriptions are false or true, just pointing out that you are saying this as a statement of fact when the statement is entirely unsubstantiated.
I am in the beginning stages of looking for a boat. In fact, I will be travelling to Tampa to look at a few private ones. Here is my experiences to date with brokers, none who I have met in person.
  • will not return emails, even after a second attempt
  • won't return phone calls
  • they have no idea what they are selling, including the color of the cushions
  • they do not know common measurements other then what is available online... try asking for head room.
  • they have no idea of maintenance on the boat or what records are available
  • they have not even seen the boat because "it is in the Caribbean"
  • etc

So, from this exposure, what am I to think of brokers in general when only ONE actually got back to me by email, and he wanted an exclusive buyers arrangement.

At this point, if I approach a dealer, it is with caution, and certainly not from a neutral point of view. Business must be real good for the attitudes so far displayed.
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Old 19-07-2012, 00:32   #37
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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That is no more correct or true than saying all power boaters are rude, arrogant twits that fly around leaving a giant wake and all sail boaters are lazy, drunken bums.
Huh...and I thought that was correct and true...
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Old 19-07-2012, 00:54   #38
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I am in the beginning stages of looking for a boat. In fact, I will be travelling to Tampa to look at a few private ones. Here is my experiences to date with brokers, none who I have met in person.
  • will not return emails, even after a second attempt
  • won't return phone calls
  • they have no idea what they are selling, including the color of the cushions
  • they do not know common measurements other then what is available online... try asking for head room.
  • they have no idea of maintenance on the boat or what records are available
  • they have not even seen the boat because "it is in the Caribbean"
  • etc
So, from this exposure, what am I to think of brokers in general when only ONE actually got back to me by email, and he wanted an exclusive buyers arrangement.

At this point, if I approach a dealer, it is with caution, and certainly not from a neutral point of view. Business must be real good for the attitudes so far displayed.
Have found the brokers in Australia I have contacted so far in my search to be very good at contact by both phone and email. Price of vessels another matter.

Must be more of an American problem ???

More of an American
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Old 19-07-2012, 05:15   #39
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As a career salesperson i can tell you that buyers usually get in thier own way.
If both sellers and buyers told the truth business would be easy.
Buyers are liars is a saying that nearly always rings true.
How many times a buyer has said thats my final offer not 1 cent more then abused me when i sell to anoher buyer for more!
Whats the problem i ask you told me not 1 cent more???
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Old 19-07-2012, 06:03   #40
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I am in the beginning stages of looking for a boat. In fact, I will be travelling to Tampa to look at a few private ones. Here is my experiences to date with brokers, none who I have met in person.
  • will not return emails, even after a second attempt
  • won't return phone calls
  • they have no idea what they are selling, including the color of the cushions
  • they do not know common measurements other then what is available online... try asking for head room.
  • they have no idea of maintenance on the boat or what records are available
  • they have not even seen the boat because "it is in the Caribbean"
  • etc

So, from this exposure, what am I to think of brokers in general when only ONE actually got back to me by email, and he wanted an exclusive buyers arrangement.

At this point, if I approach a dealer, it is with caution, and certainly not from a neutral point of view. Business must be real good for the attitudes so far displayed.
Sadly my own recent buying experience was not much better. I started searching for a boat with no preference as to buying with or without a broker. In the process I called a few brokers and even looked at a couple of boats they had for sale. I did get return calls from most (definitely not all) of the brokers I contacted but I was certainly unimpressed with the responses.

I contacted one broker with questions about a listing and decided the boat didn't meet my criteria so asked him to notify me if he found any +/- 40', center cockpit, cutter or possibly sloop rig. He came back to me with a 40', aft cockpit ketch.

Another I met seemed to be a pretty good guy but just knew very little about boats. He had recently taken early retirement (or maybe early downsizing) from business and was living on board his boat. His first boat and as far as I could tell might have never been away from the dock. Didn't know brands, rigs, hull designs or anything similar but was good on living area and big windows.

In the end I found a boat for sale by owner. Not because that was my plan, just happened to be the one I found.
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Old 19-07-2012, 07:46   #41
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

avb3,

I also signed the "exclusive buyers agreement" with my broker. in hindsight a mistake. You would do well to avoid that. It limits what you can do and protects the Brokers commission.. feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions.
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Old 19-07-2012, 08:48   #42
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

"asked him to notify me if he found any +/- 40', center cockpit, cutter or possibly sloop rig. He came back to me with a 40', aft cockpit ketch."
And you didn't ask him, full of innocence and grace, if it would be a big deal to move the cockpit to the center of the boat and get a trade-in credit for the extra mast?
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Old 19-07-2012, 08:54   #43
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

Factor,

"Certainly Australian Multihull brokers are all wonderful. Thats my anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal evidence suggests that some customers have little or no morals as well."

so by not withholding your full disclosure, YOU are a broker, so you would naturally find yourself to be honest. Funny I doubt you could stay in business long insulting your customer base. Good luck with that. You prove my point.
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Old 19-07-2012, 13:40   #44
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

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avb3,

I also signed the "exclusive buyers agreement" with my broker. in hindsight a mistake. You would do well to avoid that. It limits what you can do and protects the Brokers commission.. feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions.
Thanks, I appreciate the comment.

I see no advantage, especially in this market, of signing an exclusive buyers agreement. I just really am surprised at the lack of professionalism that any contacts I have attempted resulted in.

I know business is not booming, which is why I am really intrigued why what appears to be common tactics don't change. I used to be a consultant to auto dealers, and they changed because they had to. They acknowledge their customers, they have proper CRM systems in place and use them for follow-up, and are pressured by the manufacturers to maintain a high customer satisfaction index score, to the point if they drop below a certain level, the dealer will lose the ability to obtain popular product, along with other sanctions.

Yacht brokers would to well to learn from that, but it appears, so far, not to be the case.
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Old 19-07-2012, 14:30   #45
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Re: Broker Closing Costs

I suspect that boat builders, unlike the automakers, have a lot less "power" in their franchises. Existing dealers from "other" brands probably aren't allowed to carry the competition, so if a builder pulls a franchise, in this market who are they going to sell it to?

Even automakers have problems with franchise performance. Their terms may bind the dealer tighter, but a dealer really has to do something grossly criminal before their franchise can get pulled. There are apparently a host of state and federal regulations governing franchises as well, so even if a builder wanted to pull one and give it to the guys across the street, that could be a costly mistake.

And I don't see the boating industry as having the kind of bucks the automakers have to spend on researching customer behavior, sales programs, etc.
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