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Old 24-09-2012, 02:19   #46
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Originally Posted by justwaiting
I know Dave is right and i am in no way arguing with what he has said.

Which is why if the OP could find a boat that has already had VAT paid and "has not been exported" and with a RCD he would have a boat that could be sailed back into the EU without those expences. Futhermore IF he could find such a vessel for sale in the USA he would find that those things would not add to the market value of such a vessel in the USA as they would in EU.

Add to that boats are generaly more difficult to sell out of there market of manufacture and thus tend to sell at a lower price than in the region of manufacture. Given the American bias for American boats and the many questions raised over EU (and more particuarly french) waranties and costumer service practices demand for such a boat in the USA would be lower than in the EU.

We know that the first major crossing is often the breaking point for many sailing dreams / sailing relationships. Owing a boat and paying slip fees while having a dream turned sour leads to some highly motivated sellers.

Thus my ponit is that given the right set of curmstances an EU buyer could get benefits out of such a purchase that would be lost if a non EU buyer got the boat.
Yes of course, maybe, looking on yacht world I don't see too much price variance. Thebat tebds to depreciate out of secondhand boats , But I accept your basic idea.

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Old 24-09-2012, 02:19   #47
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by Sumner View Post
If the boat is I believe 20 years or more old the anual registration is about $7.00. Ours is an '81 and that is what we pay. I wouldn't of know about it if a 'title lady' in Naples wasn't brought into the sale.

We wanted to get the boat 'un-documented' and with a FL registration and she took care of all of that.

We considered trying to avoid the state sales tax, but by the time we did actually move her out of state and back we wouldn't of saved that much money and I didn't feel comfortable trying to get phoney documentation showing that she had been out of state.

If we would of wanted to of kept her someplace other than Florida and if we would of felt comfortable sailing her some place else and she would of cost more we might of done it, but none of those things were true so we paid the sales tax.

When you start looking at boats and talking to brokers they will have answers for you. We were also new to buying a larger boat and understanding what 'documentation' meant and all of that. You are getting some good info here from these guys and gals,

Sum

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Hi there, yes I definitely am glad I joined this site, as I have had some very good advice from some very experienced and knowledgeable people.
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Old 24-09-2012, 02:52   #48
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As a uk resident vat is due immediately on arrival in the eu and must be paid in the country of destination m for vessels over 7metres . Compliance with the Recreational Craft Directive is required irrespective of age. A post Construction assessment survey is needed as well as potential minor or major modifications.

Dave
Yes, that is correct. I have already mentioned on this thread that I have no interest in returning to the UK/EU, for a number of reasons, not least of which are the VAT and other implications (not even with an EU/UK VAT paid & registered vessel). Our dream lies in Cruising the Caribbean and USA whilst living aboard. A crossing of the pond is (for now) not even a consideration. We have too much to learn, too much to experience and too many good folk to meet in the waters I have mentioned.
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Old 24-09-2012, 03:34   #49
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
I am not a US resident so registering with the USCG cannot be done.
Many boats both in Greece and especially in Turkey are not owned by US residents but are USCG documented vessels. They use a Delaware corporation to register/document the vessel. This is done to get out of paying Turkish and Greek taxes. It does require using an agent familiar with the process.

Judy
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Old 24-09-2012, 03:50   #50
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
Many boats both in Greece and especially in Turkey are not owned by US residents but are USCG documented vessels. They use a Delaware corporation to register/document the vessel. This is done to get out of paying Turkish and Greek taxes. It does require using an agent familiar with the process.

Judy
Ah ok, have you got a name/link to that Delaware corporation? I just wonder whether it is fully above board for me as a non-us resident to do this. I really would not want to create any problems in the future for myself and would stay within US law/regulations wherever possible.

I may be wrong but having a USCG registered vessel rather than a State registered vessel appears to help with resale? I don't know how Escrow accounts work. We also still need to investigate the other side of our new life; and that is to invest some of our capital in a US home, which we would want to let as a holiday let. I believe that we would need to have an Escrow account for that but not sure whether an Escrow account would make any difference when purchasing our yacht? We are going to be cash buyers for a yacht and a house and are not looking at any form of bank finance (I hate what the banking world is doing to the economy here in the UK/EU ... but that's a different gripe and not relevant to my posts here lol).
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Old 24-09-2012, 04:40   #51
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Ah ok, have you got a name/link to that Delaware corporation? I just wonder whether it is fully above board for me as a non-us resident to do this. I really would not want to create any problems in the future for myself and would stay within US law/regulations wherever possible.

SNIP
IANAL, but there is no single Delaware corporation. The post was trying to say you need to form a corporation in Delaware that will act as the owner of the boat. Delaware is know for simple, cheap, and widely used procedures for forming corporations. Many large well known companies incorporate in Delaware for this reason even if they have most of their assets and workers located out of the state. You can find out more at this link

Delaware Division of Corporations - How to Incorporate in Delaware

As long as you are honest in filling out the paperwork you should not have any trouble. If you want to avoid doing this yourself you can find services to do it for you for a fee. There are also some other states that compete with Delaware in this area and you can buy corporations that have were incorporated years ago, the idea being that if a corporation has been around for a few years it is more legit.

Part of the problem with high taxes/fees is that it encourages governments to set up cheaper alternatives to high tax areas. Most of the big ships are registered in places like Nigeria or Panama even if the owners are located in first world countries.

YMMV
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Old 24-09-2012, 04:57   #52
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
IANAL, but there is no single Delaware corporation. The post was trying to say you need to form a corporation in Delaware that will act as the owner of the boat. Delaware is know for simple, cheap, and widely used procedures for forming corporations. Many large well known companies incorporate in Delaware for this reason even if they have most of their assets and workers located out of the state. You can find out more at this link

Delaware Division of Corporations - How to Incorporate in Delaware

As long as you are honest in filling out the paperwork you should not have any trouble. If you want to avoid doing this yourself you can find services to do it for you for a fee. There are also some other states that compete with Delaware in this area and you can buy corporations that have were incorporated years ago, the idea being that if a corporation has been around for a few years it is more legit.

Part of the problem with high taxes/fees is that it encourages governments to set up cheaper alternatives to high tax areas. Most of the big ships are registered in places like Nigeria or Panama even if the owners are located in first world countries.

YMMV
Ah, now I understand. Thanks for that info and the link. I will have a look and bear it in mind.
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Old 24-09-2012, 08:55   #53
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
...I may be wrong but having a USCG registered vessel rather than a State registered vessel appears to help with resale?
You can make a case both ways. Ruth and I are older and if something happened to us and one of the kids got the boat having a title and registration would be much easier for them to deal with selling the boat as they are familiar with buying/selling cars. But even saying that if they sold the boat, likely, they would probably go through a broker and he would of taken care of the sale for them pretty much.

It isn't that hard to go from title to documention or the other way around and the forms and such are on the internet to do it, but it is confusing so most pay to have it done.

If we thought that we were going to be traveling outside of the U.S. a lot then we would of left it documented.

Even if it is documented and it is in Florida they are going to want yearly registration fees, but I know a number of people don't pay them and the chances of getting caught are low. Still for our boat that is only $7.00 a year and would of been the same documented so not a big deal.

Sum

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Old 24-09-2012, 09:20   #54
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by Sumner View Post
You can make a case both ways. Ruth and I are older and if something happened to us and one of the kids got the boat having a title and registration would be much easier for them to deal with selling the boat as they are familiar with buying/selling cars. But even saying that if they sold the boat, likely, they would probably go through a broker and he would of taken care of the sale for them pretty much.

It isn't that hard to go from title to documention or the other way around and the forms and such are on the internet to do it, but it is confusing so most pay to have it done.

If we thought that we were going to be traveling outside of the U.S. a lot then we would of left it documented.

Even if it is documented and it is in Florida they are going to want yearly registration fees, but I know a number of people don't pay them and the chances of getting caught are low. Still for our boat that is only $7.00 a year and would of been the same documented so not a big deal.

Sum

---------------------------
I am slowly becoming familiar with some of the ins and outs of State registration as opposed to USCG documentation, thanks. I guess the problem of a "hidden" lien is as great with one system as it is with the other. Another good sailor reminded me of the old adage and that is to get out of Dodge City asap after the purchase lol.
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Old 24-09-2012, 16:05   #55
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
I am slowly becoming familiar with some of the ins and outs of State registration as opposed to USCG documentation, thanks. I guess the problem of a "hidden" lien is as great with one system as it is with the other. Another good sailor reminded me of the old adage and that is to get out of Dodge City asap after the purchase lol.

If a boat is documented you can look up some info on it, sorry I don't remember where. When we bought the Endeavour it was documented and with 2 co-owners and it wasn't clear if they had ever gotten the paper work to just one owner. It actually appeared that maybe the guy that was selling the boat wasn't the one with the address that went with the documentation.

I was pretty stressed about this and the broker assured me that I'd have a clear title when the money changed hands at the closing. The firm he worked for had been around for some time, but he was as new to all of this as we were. I started researching what had to take place to un-document the boat and get a clear title and didn't see how they were going to have time to give us one at closing. He kept assuring me that they would.

Finally I got the head of the firm involved and he in turn got a women that does this for a living involved and she explained the whole process to us and assured us that she could handle it. I wasn't happy as that was then going to cost $200-$400 (can't remember the exact amount). I told the owner that I'd signed the papers and was going to pay at closing based on the fact that I would get a clear title at that point. He then said that the money for the women would come out of the salesman's commission. I felt bad about that, but I'd gone through so much stress at that time and we were about ready to walk that I let it go. She did exactly as she said and shortly after we returned home the title came along with her notice that the boat was old enough to qualify for the low yearly registration.

The moral of the story is that if you are spending the money, and we spent a lot less than you are going to, get someone who is qualified to handle the title check and the paperwork that has good referrals and bite the bullet and spend the couple hundred and sleep at night. If you need it I could PM you who we used and who we would use again.

The buying and haggling over the price and so forth was nerve racking for us as I don't like that kind of thing, but you will get it behind you.

One last word of advice and then I won't bring it up again. When we bought our MacGregor it was in the winter and I did a lot of mods to it and people kept telling me that we should sail it before we did anything to it, especially since we had never sailed before, but since it was cold (we live in the mountain west) I worked and worked and we finally put the boat in and had no regrets spending the money and doing the work. So I felt most of the advice was not warranted. So what I'll say next might not also be warranted so take it for what it is worth.

You have sailed and gone out for a week. Has your wife? Going out for a week even is a far cry from living on the boat more or less full time. You are making a big step more or less selling everything and jumping into buying a first boat that is also hopefully going to please you for some time and also hopefully so will the life style. Consider trying to get on some boat for a month or so to see if this is really what you want. There are options to do that.

Second is that a 44 or larger boat is going to give you more room than a 35-40, but for the area that you are interested in it might also limit where you are going to be able to go. The mast height isn't just to go into a city. Most cruisers end up in Florida on the ICW sooner or later and the bridges there will limit you. You can go quite a ways up or down the coast to fine good places to go inside or outside. If you are on the Gulf side of Florida Bay or go up by the Everglades and the 10,000 Islands and inside on the ICW over there 5 feet or less is going to really open up some beautiful places to sail and get into at night. After being to those places in our little Mac we sure didn't want to give up those places. Someone above mentioned boats 44 or over that had less than a 5 foot draft. If that is still your goal I'd be looking at which boats those are. If you can anchor in closer to shore or get into holes you will be much more comfortable at night.

If you find anchoring out isn't your deal and need to find marinas and slips for a 40+ foot boat remember that those longer slips are limited and the price is by the foot and start getting pretty expensive pretty fast.

There are some nice boats out there in the 35' range in good shape that you could get started with and if you like them flip them for something larger within a year and maybe loose $2,000 to $5,000 in the process which would be like paying $200-$400 a month for the experience and you would be a lot wiser in making a more permanent decision then.

Please don't take the above as a bunch of 'negative vibes'. Ruth and I love it, but aren't full time cruisers and probably never will be, but you might be ,

Sum

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Old 25-09-2012, 00:53   #56
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumner View Post
If a boat is documented you can look up some info on it, sorry I don't remember where. When we bought the Endeavour it was documented and with 2 co-owners and it wasn't clear if they had ever gotten the paper work to just one owner. It actually appeared that maybe the guy that was selling the boat wasn't the one with the address that went with the documentation.

I was pretty stressed about this and the broker assured me that I'd have a clear title when the money changed hands at the closing. The firm he worked for had been around for some time, but he was as new to all of this as we were. I started researching what had to take place to un-document the boat and get a clear title and didn't see how they were going to have time to give us one at closing. He kept assuring me that they would.

Finally I got the head of the firm involved and he in turn got a women that does this for a living involved and she explained the whole process to us and assured us that she could handle it. I wasn't happy as that was then going to cost $200-$400 (can't remember the exact amount). I told the owner that I'd signed the papers and was going to pay at closing based on the fact that I would get a clear title at that point. He then said that the money for the women would come out of the salesman's commission. I felt bad about that, but I'd gone through so much stress at that time and we were about ready to walk that I let it go. She did exactly as she said and shortly after we returned home the title came along with her notice that the boat was old enough to qualify for the low yearly registration.

The moral of the story is that if you are spending the money, and we spent a lot less than you are going to, get someone who is qualified to handle the title check and the paperwork that has good referrals and bite the bullet and spend the couple hundred and sleep at night. If you need it I could PM you who we used and who we would use again.

The buying and haggling over the price and so forth was nerve racking for us as I don't like that kind of thing, but you will get it behind you.

One last word of advice and then I won't bring it up again. When we bought our MacGregor it was in the winter and I did a lot of mods to it and people kept telling me that we should sail it before we did anything to it, especially since we had never sailed before, but since it was cold (we live in the mountain west) I worked and worked and we finally put the boat in and had no regrets spending the money and doing the work. So I felt most of the advice was not warranted. So what I'll say next might not also be warranted so take it for what it is worth.

You have sailed and gone out for a week. Has your wife? Going out for a week even is a far cry from living on the boat more or less full time. You are making a big step more or less selling everything and jumping into buying a first boat that is also hopefully going to please you for some time and also hopefully so will the life style. Consider trying to get on some boat for a month or so to see if this is really what you want. There are options to do that.

Second is that a 44 or larger boat is going to give you more room than a 35-40, but for the area that you are interested in it might also limit where you are going to be able to go. The mast height isn't just to go into a city. Most cruisers end up in Florida on the ICW sooner or later and the bridges there will limit you. You can go quite a ways up or down the coast to fine good places to go inside or outside. If you are on the Gulf side of Florida Bay or go up by the Everglades and the 10,000 Islands and inside on the ICW over there 5 feet or less is going to really open up some beautiful places to sail and get into at night. After being to those places in our little Mac we sure didn't want to give up those places. Someone above mentioned boats 44 or over that had less than a 5 foot draft. If that is still your goal I'd be looking at which boats those are. If you can anchor in closer to shore or get into holes you will be much more comfortable at night.

If you find anchoring out isn't your deal and need to find marinas and slips for a 40+ foot boat remember that those longer slips are limited and the price is by the foot and start getting pretty expensive pretty fast.

There are some nice boats out there in the 35' range in good shape that you could get started with and if you like them flip them for something larger within a year and maybe loose $2,000 to $5,000 in the process which would be like paying $200-$400 a month for the experience and you would be a lot wiser in making a more permanent decision then.

Please don't take the above as a bunch of 'negative vibes'. Ruth and I love it, but aren't full time cruisers and probably never will be, but you might be ,

Sum

----------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your comments. I appreciate the info on your purchase and everything else makes sense and is good advice to consider. I have been on the sea a lot more than the 1 week trip but my wife is the one who is entirely new to the sea, never having grown up at the sea or on it like me. We do have a lot to consider and responses like this are not taken as negative, rather as something to consider properly and remain focused, determined and positive. Being forewarned is being forearmed. All the advice and responses I get here are helping us to prepare for our big decision and hopefully when it finally arrives (or we arrive to do the physical search and purchase), we will be well prepared and will have a less stressful beginning; if that is possible haha.

In reference to your purchase: I am not so much concerned about the title docs anymore, as I am sure that this is just a formality, especially if one uses a professional title agent. I have more of a concern with a "hidden" lien. From what I understand there is a limited amount of searches that can be done and even then there is no guarantee that a search will uncover a lien that is not recorded.

I guess it will be a question of applying due diligence and then "getting out of Dodge City" sharpish haha.
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Old 25-09-2012, 08:14   #57
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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.... I have more of a concern with a "hidden" lien. From what I understand there is a limited amount of searches that can be done and even then there is no guarantee that a search will uncover a lien that is not recorded....
Not sure how easy it is to see with a boat that is 'documented' and is why I felt better with that lady handling that situation, but I would think that a boat title would look like a car title and show if there is a lien right on the title itself. Maybe someone else can comment on that. Of course the boat you buy might be documented and not have a title.

One other place to look is to subscribe to GOOD OLD BOAT. I've seen boats in there that seem to be more cruiser/liveaboard orientated and seem to have good prices, but never have looked at one.

We did look at a 32 Endeavour in Alabama (drove 500 miles or so to see it) that looked great in the internet pictures and had lots of new stuff on it, new diesel, new diesel generator, paint, woodwork and such. Got to the boat and it was already trashed. A wasted trip,

Sum

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Old 25-09-2012, 08:29   #58
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Originally Posted by Sumner View Post
Not sure how easy it is to see with a boat that is 'documented' and is why I felt better with that lady handling that situation, but I would think that a boat title would look like a car title and show if there is a lien right on the title itself. Maybe someone else can comment on that. Of course the boat you buy might be documented and not have a title.

One other place to look is to subscribe to GOOD OLD BOAT. I've seen boats in there that seem to be more cruiser/liveaboard orientated and seem to have good prices, but never have looked at one.

We did look at a 32 Endeavour in Alabama (drove 500 miles or so to see it) that looked great in the internet pictures and had lots of new stuff on it, new diesel, new diesel generator, paint, woodwork and such. Got to the boat and it was already trashed. A wasted trip,

Sum

-----------------------------------
Unfortunately there are a number of liens that do not have to be documented so a boat title will not necessarily show a lien. An example of an undocumented lien would be a marine mechanic who has worked on a boat. I know there is much more. I guess that I am starting to accept that if I allowed such things to concern me too much I will be frozen into inaction. I will apply as much due diligence as I can and with the help of the good folk here and elsewhere I am confident I will avoid an unscrupulous seller.
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Old 25-09-2012, 09:38   #59
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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Register/Flag your boat in the United Nations and get a UN Passport and you will be exempt from any and all taxes the world over.
A search of the UN web site and the internet in general did not turn up any process for registering a boat with the United Nations. The UN Laissez Passer is used like a passport, but it is only available to UN employees engaged on official United Nations business or travel.
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Old 25-09-2012, 09:54   #60
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Re: Boats with unpaid taxes

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A search of the UN web site and the internet in general did not turn up any process for registering a boat with the United Nations. The UN Laissez Passer is used like a passport, but it is only available to UN employees engaged on official United Nations business or travel.
Well ... I didn't take too much notice of that post and didn't try looking that one up for many different reasons. The United Nations is an organization and not a Country or State. I cannot register a yacht with an organization; it has to be with a sovereign State or Country as far as my common sense guides me, or am I wrong?
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