Australia Is Such an Overpriced Sh**hole - AAARGH

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by At sea

That 's not the point.
The point is that these are repressive laws against freedom of speech, and that such laws would not stand scrutiny in any western democracy.

It is the point
They are the laws in that country.
It matters not what would stand up in the Western world, Thailand is not the Western world if you haven't figured it out yet.

And I'm sure you, of all people, would value freedom of speech highly. (penalty for calling Aus a sh****** is the rack)

Over here I have freedom of speech, but you can be assured that when in Thailand I would never be so foolish as to say bad things about His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej or his family.

I would also not be so foolish as to expect or believe that western laws and ways hold any weight in a foreign land nor would I be one of the ignorant tourists that try and press their laws and standards on other countries that they visit or believe that the rules simply don't apply to them..

Take recent case of 14 year old dope head in Bali for example and the bleeding hearts that thought it unfair that he was locked away for a short spell on the basis that in Australia he wouldn't have been.

To your various queries, google away - there is absolutely no shortage of references but the info I provided was from recalls from old-fashioned newsprint - but I'm sure you'll also find a digital version. Pasted below is a release from just last week:

Yes, yes I found some references, I was after your specific claim of:
20 year minimum sentencing
and 2 journos getting 20 years for lack of respect

They are claims that you made, I would have thought you'd actually have something to support it.

[Wand]

Originally Posted by cat man do

It is the point
They are the laws in that country.
It matters not what would stand up in the Western world, Thailand is not the Western world if you haven't figured it out yet. I would also not be so foolish as to expect or believe that western laws and ways hold any weight in a foreign land nor would I be one of the ignorant tourists that try and press their laws and standards on other countries that they visit or believe that the rules simply don't apply yada yada yada

I'm not sure whether you willfully misrepresent or simply fail to comprehend straightforward sentences and lines of reasoning...

But whatever, I see no point in trying yet again. Along with some others, I'm done! Where's that 'whoosh' smilie gone?

[Lagoon4us]

Im so with you on that....i'm done!!!!!!
Two yachts i built in the early '80s both Adam's 45 round bilge one ally the other steel (Bungee and Myten) sailed empty to Thailand for fitouts.
Why???
1) Boatyard labour here was $16/hour. Thai = about $2/hour
2) Thailand has Teak. Bugger all available here.
3) Workforce for the fitout numbered 7. Flatout finding 2 men available.
There were similar whinges from those people as from Cat man do....Nothing has changed!

[D&D]

Originally Posted by At sea

Where's that 'whoosh' smilie gone?

214 posts later...could this thread actually be running outta fuel...?!?

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by D&D

214 posts later...could this thread actually be running outta fuel...?!?

Dont say fuel!!! IT'll become a debate on Fuel/Electric propulsion NNNNnnnoooooooo!!!!!!

[Ex-Calif]

Wow - A lot of action here...

- Most all the Thais love the king and his family. Demonstrating against the government is not a "problem."

- US farm subsidies are predominantly to support farmers not growing food so as to support the prices. I have friends who invested in various farm properties specifically to get a check to not grow food.

- The US grows craploads of food more efficiently than just about everyone else. If the markets were truly open, and US farmers given free hand to grow France, Japan and most of SEA would be out of the food growing business. However, if your country tarrifs US produce that is a good thing. Creating a dependency on foreign food to feed my population would be a complete failure of government. I am a free market guy predominantly but pretty much require my government to protect basic population needs like food. Not apologizing for that ever.

- Restricting freedoms? As an American I enjoy lots of freedoms. However, imposing our ideal of freedoms on other countries is colonialistic to say the least and it is sort of pie in the sky to think we can seriously influence local law and culture. These changes have to work out over lots of time.

- US freedoms were won in some significant wars (revolution anyone - Civil war anyone?) and much fairly recent civil unrest (wanna ride a bus in Birminham?)

- You see this playing out in Asian cities a lot these days.

- Most recently the occupy movement has captured my attention. I am not still sure what they are after, or even sure if they are sure what they are after but seeing people pepper sprayed for living in a tent near wall street brings civil rights activism tears to my eyes in sympathy with the pepper induced ones of theirs

From the very standpoint of their right to protest and demonstrate I hope this continues to escalate as a modern test of our rights. I am appaled on the surface that my government is inflicting violence on these folks. However, it is completely within precedent.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by At sea

I'm not sure whether you willfully misrepresent or simply fail to comprehend straightforward sentences and lines of reasoning...

I am yet to see any
All I have seen is that you feel that things in the east are so unfair because the west does it differently.
To me that smacks of arrogance.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Wow - A lot of action here...

- Most all the Thais love the king and his family. Demonstrating against the government is not a "problem."

- US farm subsidies are predominantly to support farmers not growing food so as to support the prices. I have friends who invested in various farm properties specifically to get a check to not grow food.

- The US grows craploads of food more efficiently (WRONG for sugar) than just about everyone else. If the markets were truly open, and US farmers given free hand to grow France, Japan and most of SEA would be out of the food growing business. However, if your country tarrifs US produce that is a good thing. Creating a dependency on foreign food to feed my population would be a complete failure of government. I am a free market guy predominantly but pretty much require my government to protect basic population needs like food. Not apologizing for that ever.

- .

When I was in USA looking at US Sugar indusrty in 1999 we were recieving and surviving (just) on world market price/ approximately half that US growers were recieving. Australia and Brazil certainly are producing sugar more efficently than USA is with their subsidies.

Brazil and Aust are currently running a case against EC over their failure to reduce subsidies for sugar.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by cat man do

It hardly matters as today the motor here costs closer to $18,500
Thats DOUBLE what it costs in the US and we are now at parity.


Gouging is the other?

Of course there are two different types of ships, I never said they weren't and what does it matter?
We do get other things from Japan you know, we also get cars electronics, partial vehicles and low hour engines and tyres.
Its not as if they are sending a special ship just for me.

I am being objective, my comments on pricing are based on FACT

Don't get me wrong I totally sympathize and this is an interesting case.

Smart assed answer first - Sell your two new for $36k. Buy 2 new for $18k. Ship them to Oz & pocket the difference.

OK the not smartass part is trying to find a buyer for your two engines and that is part of the problem. Australia's market is very small, tiny, miniscule. I don't want to hurt Oz's feelings. it's just a fact. There are probably more pleasure boats in SFO than all of Australia and may as well throw in NZ. OK maybe an exageration I don't know the numbers.

Let's guess that 5% of the population owns a pleasure yacht. That is 15.5m pleasure boats vs. 1.1m. 15:1 leverage in terms of market.

Would I start a factory to build these engines locally? No - Labor is too high and market is too small.

Would I stock them on a shelf? If I am a supplier in OZ I am no way gonna keep $18,000 worth of inventory on the shelf (2 engines) in case someone wants to buy them. I could get 2% in a savings account - LOL...

So I offer to import them for you. Let's say the whole exercise takes 2 months to land them in Oz.

Price = 18,000k
Shipping = $1,000 each? $2,000k
Duties = worst case 17% of FOB? $3,400
Paperwork time and labor = $500
Profit Margin Before Taxes = 30% $7,170
Sales Price = $31,070
VAT 10% = $3,107
Invoice price = $34,177

Hidden in there is also my hurdle rate - i.e. I front you the money down to duties and take a risk you will never take delivery. I have a business that wants to earn 30% before taxes. So the $23,400 I front you is tied up for two months at a hurdle rate of 30%. i.e. I could be doing something else with the 23k making a 30% profit. This is another $1,000 or so. i only point this out because some folks confuse hurdle rate with what I could earn in a bank if I did nothing. Buisinesses don't do "nothing" with their money. In fact they want to borrow as much bank money as possible at 4%, earn at 30% while the bank pays you the depositer 2%.

Landed price at $34k is about right if I were running the business.

I could see you as a customer getting pissed about, Duties, VAT and my profit.

Duties - Your government would rather you not send your money overseas. They would rather you buy a house or a Holden and keep it local. As a free market dude I totally sympathize with you.

VAT - Most of the USA has sales tax. Life is hard - get a helmet

My profit - Hey, why would I even pretend to be in business as a charity. I have salaries and rents to pay and also a government check to write of my own. If I am not earning 30% Net Before Taxes I am on a labor of charity and love.

Here is an interesting table of duties and VATS from which I guestimated the above.

Value-Added Taxes (VAT)

Take a look at all the places you'd rather not be than OZ. Especially take a look at Thailand, Philippines and Malaysia. Malaysia does have some duty free ports however, where surprisingly they have boat yards with fairly thriving business!

Singapore pretty much gets the free market economy. For a place with basically no resources it is almost a requirement to trade and they make it easy. Except for cars and that is a result of traffic control not an abhorence of luxury goods.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by downunder

When I was in USA looking at US Sugar indusrty in 1999 we were recieving and surviving (just) on world market price/ approximately half that US growers were recieving. Australia and Brazil certainly are producing sugar more efficently than USA is with their subsidies.

Brazil and Aust are currently running a case against EC over their failure to reduce subsidies for sugar.

Point totally taken and accepted. If I guess right the only place still pretending to grow sugar in the USA is Hawaii - maybe some southern states? They don't grow pineapples there any more either except for the tourists. Supporting Hawaii is a pretty special case in the USA. Lived there 2 years and it was "GD" expensive. Everyone kept telling me, "At least the beach is free..."

In terms of grain, carbohydrates, vegetables, meat and dairy, the US feeds itself, many others and has lots of unused capacity.

We don't grow much Durian though - LOL...

Quick google shows the sugar producers - US is not even in the top ten so there's one market we can't get blamed for dumping in - LOL. Of course we can be blamed for not consuming our share as most sweetener (by mega-far) is now corn syrup, which as we all know the USA grows a bit.

Brazil 645,300,182
India 348,187,900
People's Republic of China 124,917,502
Thailand 73,501,610
Pakistan 63,920,000
Mexico 51,106,900
Colombia 38,500,000 F
Australia 32,621,113
Argentina 29,950,000
Philippines 26,601,400

I always love where these conversation take my thinking so I googled who makes the most food, specifically searched by "calorie content" and got the two attached charts. I don't think it egotistical or pompous to point out US food production. It's really staggering. Very large numbers are hard for us to get our heads around but China's $460 Billion dollars and 1.2 trillion calories in production is a lot of time in a checkout line - LOL...

[downunder]

Brazil is the big one. Could be no 1 and is No 1 producer if it wanted of nearly any type of Agriculture.

Sugar, citrus, coffee, soy, beef. Just a few. they don't bother with corn for ethanol as sugar is much more efficient and USA has some type of trade barrier against ethanol from Brazil as they are not competative.

I think their duties are around 40% and with their big population that is why they are producing most things thesedays. Cars, motors etc,etc. To be competive multinationals have set up factories otherwise 40%. No such thing as free trade unless its to their advantage.

Cheers

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by At sea

And do you know why they are smiling? It's because they dare not be caught levelling ANY criticism, no matter how tame, against the monarchy. Penalty? Twenty years prison is the minimum sentence.

Two cases in the last year or so to illustrate. One was the merest of slights against the monarchy in a book on Thailand published outside the country: 20 years. The other victims were two journalists who refused to stand for the national anthem in a movie theatre; they were dragged out and given 20 years each.

I am no supporter of Monarchies anywhere, and find our own rather embarrasing (in principal and in person). No idea why other countries still want someone else's head of state as there own. Bizarre But in Thailand I kept schtumm on the subject of monarchy

In Thailand the current King started off as a puppet (as many Kings around the world have been), but over the decades developed his own powerbase - and has done very nicely $$$$$$ out of the deal. The big plus to having him is that the palace provides somewhere that rival interests can settle there differences (or simply kick the can down the road) in a way that saves face for all.

Thailand is still a young democracy and the country is riddled with corruption - but the Peasantry have been finding there voice over the last 10 years and are not so deferential to the powers that be and questionning of there place in the pecking order. The Royalty is perhaps an exception to that, where most genuinely do beleive that it is a good thing - the power of brainwashing since birth - for many hard to shake off, just like Buddhism and other branches of the nonsense tree

Those of you who still persist in the notion that our western democracies are corrupted and voting provides just a warm fuzzy feeling are sadly and deeply removed from the reality of people's lives in places where the most basic freedoms we take for granted do not apply.

Laws like that (in Thailand) would never stand scrutiny in any western parliament. Being cynical might seem clever, but it's no substitute for a good dose of reality.

Those quotes sound kinda familiar

In regard to Western Corruption, do you think that the expansion of the State is all about helping the Peasants (even if that is the political reason given) - it's often about finding reasons to issue contracts for the benefit of the right people. In the old days (and still in the 3rd World) that would leave a money trail, but nowadays more sophisticated ways of acheiving that, including by later inviting folk to particpate in sweetheart deals. A classic example being Tony Bliar.

Goes on at all levels. Always has done and always will ........just that once corruption reaches a certain level it destroys an economy.

Agree that in the West we often take our Freedoms for granted, but in the UK seems to be heading towards the case that can say anything you like, as long no one else gets offended. and can put bodies onto the streets as long as they are peaceful (aka ineffectual ).

In the good old days a large number of Peasants marching down the street was something to fear......I do kinda like the French model of manning the barricades

BTW am not saying that the plastic democracy of the west is a bad thing, just no point pretending it is something more than it is - In any event , no one in there right mind would want someone like me anywhere near being able to exert real influence and I suspect there be lot of us like that .....

Cynical? me? yeah

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by cat man do

Yes, yes I found some references, I was after your specific claim of:
20 year minimum sentencing
and 2 journos getting 20 years for lack of respect

They are claims that you made, I would have thought you'd actually have something to support it.

If it's not on the internet it not's true?

FWIW I do vaguely remember the case (certainly the Cinema part - although I don't recall they were journos).....my reaction at the time was "stupid tw#ts".

[RigelKent]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

...Let's guess that 5% of the population owns a pleasure yacht. That is 15.5m pleasure boats vs. 1.1m. 15:1 leverage in terms of market.

Would I start a factory to build these engines locally? No - Labor is too high and market is too small....

Possibly not entire engines (most come included), but consider how far computer-aided manufacture has come. Making replacement parts to a high standard is largely a matter of having the control files and the NC machinery. There's no need to stock parts or import them. Hobbyists are doing it for fun. As a friend one said, "it's not rocket surgery [sic]."

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

My profit - Hey, why would I even pretend to be in business as a charity. I have salaries and rents to pay and also a government check to write of my own. If I am not earning 30% Net Before Taxes I am on a labor of charity and love.

One of my favourite quotes is "The reason it's expensive is due to my profit" .