Advice Please - Gemini Purchase Gone Awry Dec 2012

[denverd0n]

Sometime back we had a discussion about whether or not the seller was entitled to see a copy of the survey. Right here is exactly why the survey belongs to the buyer and ONLY the buyer. If the seller wants to see a copy of a survey he can darned well pay for his own!

[Rocketman]

I googled Andre Ganton of Toronto Yacht Sales, and it came right up, there are several good reviews of his past performance on this site. It would also appear that he values these good reviews. I think you have a case to write your own review. Also, can you tell us more about the "Deal gone bad". Was the broker with you when you did the survey? Did he give you reasons why the owner thought he should get more money after an agreement was made? Did you pull the boat out of the water to do the survey? Maybe your experince will help us to also not have a bad experience.

[colemj]

A lien is good advice. They are cheap to file and will prevent the seller from selling the boat until the lien is dealt with. I would file a lien, sit back and make the seller find you to negotiate its removal.

Mark

[Mambo]

I am not so sure your damages are only $1000. I would agree you ought to consult and attorney and consider filing a lien. The agreement of sale ought to have some details about damages provisions (it almost certainly has a provision regarding your forfieture of the deposit had you walked away). You may be out of pocket $1000 but you may also be able to make a compelling case that you are entitled to THAT boat as it was at THAT time. In which case, the difference between the survey value and you contract agreement might better represent your damages (plus your out of pocket expenses). Don't know how I'd handle it personally, but a lawyer can advise you as to the possibilities and then you can step back and choose your course of action.
Luck
-M

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by bviflyer

Ontario Broker, Andre Ganton of Toronto Yacht Sales. Association there is the Ontario Marine Operators Association. Currently checking to see if he's a member however it's not listed on his site.

Boat flying the Canadian Flag - Appears not to be on the Canadian ships Registry.....but you may have some more details (from the sale agreement?) to enter in.

Vessel Registration Query System

Hard to make out, but Port of Registry (on the stern) appears to be Tobermory - which is not a Port of Registry. There is a Gypsy Rose listed - but it's not this one.




Having said all that, from memory , does Canada have a (limited?) domestic boat registration? - albeit I did not think that worked internationally.......or it only does work in countries where Canadian boats well known?.........just thinking that if the boat should be on the full register - then maybe can add some costs / aggro to the Vendor......Listing also gives location as "Cruising Bahamas and Florida" - the mean spirited could drop a coin .

.........and for the nosey (like me ) the boat listing:-

34′ Gemini 3400 – 1995 – $65,900 | Used Boats for Sale Ontario - Toronto Yacht Sales

Listed at USD65,900 - if that is the old (lower) price could simply be that Broker not got around to updating the website (that's par for the course ) or is now using simply to pad out his listings.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by bstreep

One other thought. Not sure about boat brokerage, but in real estate, the owner owes the broker their commission... Might team up with the broker for your $1000 plus his/her 10%. That might get the owner's attention.

Yeah, at this point the broker should be as pissed about it as you are. (if he's not I would beware of what IS going on!) The boat owner's going to be back someday, you guys should put a lien on the boat, and eventually... he'll have to pay if he sells the boat... The sales agreement is a binding contract....

[bviflyer]

Cheechako and David Old Jersey, you've hit the nail on the head. This is the vessel and the listing is the most current one with this lower price. Previous listing was for more but it did not sell for a year. I remember specifically after all was signed agreed and survey complete, I went to discuss paperwork lien search etc, whereby I was advised that registered vessels like this do not require lien searches etc. I am seeking legal assistance now but waiting for a 48 hour period for him/them to reply.

[scubafoolin]

Hi all - interesting forum! Just googled the boat I'm interested in buying and the broker and found this little gem!! I have been corresponding with said broker about the gypsie rose for the last few weeks and the broker offered me "a recent survey" conducted by a prospective buyer who "changed his mind"!! Told me to send $800 and the survey is mine. If you didn't give him a copy, either he's selling nothing or the surveyor needs to be contacted. The boat is still very much on the market and heading to Florida according to my last email from broker (about 2 weeks ago). Will probably NOT send $800 to Toronto broker!! But WILL continue to monitor this forum. So sorry for what you are going thru and I hope you find the perfect boat.

[bviflyer]

Vessel is registered under ON1397991 (supposedly from owner Claus Gnadig, of Owen Sound0 with an HINPC100430D595.

"Scubafoolin" very interesting indeed. I had heard she was still being offered up for sale but headed to Turks. Recent survey was completed by me in Dec 2011. I can assure you he (broker or owner is selling nothing as I have not given a copy nor sold him a copy of it. Are you sure you were dealing with the broker at Toronto yacht sales? If you have a copy, or do gain it, I can assure you it would be considered "hot" material if you know what i mean. If I were you I wouldn't get involved until this clears up, but of course it is a free world - just saying.

[scubafoolin]

Hey! It's "scubafoolin", not "scubafool" ! But yes, I'm sure it's the same guy - Andre at Toronto Yacht Sales... we've had multiple email communications. He seems like a nice guy, but the "send $800 now" was brash and out of (apparent) character. Just copy/pasted this from the email: "Yes if you are willing to pay the 800 the survey is yours. Let me know and I'll send you wire transfer instructions." (I can send you all our email communications if you like...) We were planning to fly to the States as soon as she landed but it all sounds way too fishy to get involved at this point. And the owner sounds like an *&^... I too thought that a contract was legally binding... wow. Lots of learning here; sadly at your expense. Keep us posted please. Tracy.

[Canibul]

I live in the Turks and Caicos full time. We overlook one of the marinas from our patio, and are in daily VHF comms with the other two every morning. Small island.

If she shows up here, we would likely know about it unless they slipped in quietly and knew someone with a dock they could tie up to or they anchored and stayed away from this island. It's possible, but not likely after a long run down.

I'd spot a Gem anyhow, from a long distance away, as we are planning to buy a later model ourselves.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by bviflyer

Vessel is registered under ON1397991 (supposedly from owner Claus Gnadig, of Owen Sound0 with an HINPC100430D595.

I can't seem to get anything (under that name or number) on that link I posted earlier to Canadian Register of Ships .

It's getting late here!............but from my quick read through the Gov Website, seems that a Pleasure Craft Licence is an alternative to a Registration and that the PCL number is affixed to the bow (a Registered vessel does not have that on the bow) - photo is a bit fuzzy, but numbers on the bow seem to match the above........seems that a boat cannot be on both the Ships Register and the PCL.....therefore my take is that the boat is only PCL (and not registered - therefore why it does not appear on the Register search).......although the website wording is a bit unclear, seems to be that PCL intended (and required) for use only inside Canada and that the PCL does not provide proof of ownership.

"In order for a pleasure craft to be eligible for a Canadian licence, it must be principally maintained and operated in Canada".

Frequently Asked Questions - Transport Canada

Not sure if this Gemini would still qualify.......

"Scubafoolin" very interesting indeed. I had heard she was still being offered up for sale but headed to Turks. Recent survey was completed by me in Dec 2011. I can assure you he (broker or owner is selling nothing as I have not given a copy nor sold him a copy of it. Are you sure you were dealing with the broker at Toronto yacht sales? If you have a copy, or do gain it, I can assure you it would be considered "hot" material if you know what i mean. If I were you I wouldn't get involved until this clears up, but of course it is a free world - just saying.

That's an odd one, unless everyone is involved in taking a cut from buyers having endless surveys - from the same surveyor!.....but that sounds unlikely............But another survey may have come from Vendor having pulled the same stunt in backing out at the last minute to other buyer(s?!).......maybe he is waiting for someone who doesn't want to look too closely at the title / registration?.......not familiar with s/h Cat market in that part of the world, but that price seems like a tempter for folk - which would usually indicate a serious / keen Vendor..........

The good news is that this thread pops up well on Google for Gemini Catamaran in Bahamas and Florida

[bstreep]

I would contact the surveyor, and let him/her know that the broker is trying to re-sell the survey. I'd also quiz him about giving a copy to the broker, and follow this up with a complaint. I'd also consider small claims against the surveyor. I'm not a lawyer, but I think at that point, you could require the broker to cough up the survey, and that would be proof that the surveyor gave a copy to the broker, illegally.

Basically, through enough garbage around until they pay you your survey fee.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by bstreep

I would contact the surveyor, and let him/her know that the broker is trying to re-sell the survey. I'd also quiz him about giving a copy to the broker, and follow this up with a complaint. I'd also consider small claims against the surveyor. I'm not a lawyer, but I think at that point, you could require the broker to cough up the survey, and that would be proof that the surveyor gave a copy to the broker, illegally.

Basically, through enough garbage around until they pay you your survey fee.

Your advice in this and prevous posts seems good.

If a lien is placed in Canada and the boat is sold in the US how would one discover the lien and if the boat eas purchased and reregistered in the US would the lien be enforceable later?

These international deals can be scary and confusing.

I hate the litigious society we have become in general but in the US one generally sues those left standing. In this case I would talk to a lawyer about the duties of the broker. The broker is brokering a deal - you negotiated in good faith and gave the broker a deposit who (presumably) did not tell you to not do a survey. If he lets his seller get off the hook you may have a beef with the broker for your unrrcovered costs. Then if he wants to pursue his seller that's his business.

The issue of the "sold" survey is secondary and could bring the surveyor in as that survey belongs to you. The internet is great and the market is small. You have indications the surveyor is selling your survey.

I'd line my ducks up and have my lawyer write a letter to surveyor and basically say, I have evidence you are selling my survey. Send me my money back and I will not pursue. Don't send me my money and be prepared to be named in the recovery suit.

[bviflyer]

Ex-Calif, precisely my thoughts based on such great input from all. The broker is the one (in this instance) that knows he has made irrepairable mistakes leading to this and obviously would rather I am the one out of pocket, not him.