Advice Please - Gemini Purchase Gone Awry Dec 2012

[twistedtree]

Originally Posted by bviflyer

I went to discuss paperwork lien search etc, whereby I was advised that registered vessels like this do not require lien searches

Boy, that's a red flag if I every saw one.

[twistedtree]

Broker sure seems like scum. At a minimum he's selling a survey that's yours which is unethical, if not illegal. Worst case he's complicit/accessory with the seller in breech of contract.

[Therapy]

This is all assuming there is only one survey - the OPs.

Could there be another?

[Mr B]

Go the other way,

You are a buyer, you back out of the deal, you have lost your deposit, and survey fees, and any other money you have paid,

The seller is under the same rules, He backs out, he must repay you all the money you have outlayed, Including survey fees,

[Canibul]

Originally Posted by Therapy

This is all assuming there is only one survey - the OPs.

Could there be another?

I was wondering same thing. This is an earlier Gemini with an outboard, right? Good bet it's been on the market before and surveyed.

[Lagoon4us]

This is pretty much the industry standard for purchasing a boat.

11. DEFAULT BY SELLER: The SELLER's failure to deliver the YACHT to the BUYER or otherwise to perform the terms of the Agreement, due to any reason (including loss of or substantial damage to the YACHT caused by the SELLER's negligence which prevents completion of the sale), shall obligate the SELLER to pay all costs and charges incurred in connection with any survey undertaken on behalf of the BUYER, and to pay the BROKERS the full brokerage commission which would have otherwise been due pursuant to Paragraph 8(f). The SELLER's obligation is without prejudice to any other rights the BUYER might also have as a result of the SELLER's default. However, if the sale cannot be completed by the closing date due to substantial damage to the YACHT not caused by the SELLER's negligence, the SELLING BROKER is authorized to deduct from the deposit any fees or charges incurred against the YACHT by the BUYER, including the cost of the survey and related expenses, and return the balance to the BUYER.

Cheers Frank

[ausaviator]

It would seem obvious at this point that the seller is responsible for the costs incurred.

It now seems that he has skipped town or left the country, so it now becomes a matter of whether it's worth chasing down the owner to try and re-coup the associated costs.

In reality, it is probably not worth while.

Unfortunately you can't even refer to it as a "lesson learned" because it's not your fault.

Just be thankful it's $1,000 and not a whole yacht that was uninsured or something catastrophic.


As a side note; whenever I enquire seriously about boats, I usually ask for a copy of the last survey. It seems that many owners posess these either as they have only recently purchased the vessel themselves, or they have a recent survey for insurance or something similar. It would seem that 90% of the time that they do come up with the survey which can only benefit them in the long term if there is nothing to hide on the vessel.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Go the other way,

You are a buyer, you back out of the deal, you have lost your deposit, and survey fees, and any other money you have paid,

The seller is under the same rules, He backs out, he must repay you all the money you have outlayed, Including survey fees,

Depends what the Sale Contract says. It's business - morals don't come into it .

In an earlier post (by someone - OP?) reference was made to the Broker having said that a search for Liens was not needed.

If my info on Canadian Boat Licencing / Registration is correct, I think he was at least half right right - as unlike the formal Ships Register, the Boat Licence does not have a capacity to record debts secured on a vessel (and nor is the Boat Licence proof of title - in those respects seems kinda like the UK SSR vs the Part 1 (Blue Book) Register).....but that doesn't mean that no debts are secured on the boat - just no register of them exists.

There probably aren't any debts on the boat - but a lot of money to spend on a "probably"......each to there own on that one.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Depends what the Sale Contract says. It's business - morals don't come into it .

In an earlier post (by someone - OP?) reference was made to the Broker having said that a search for Liens was not needed.

If my info on Canadian Boat Licencing / Registration is correct, I think he was at least half right right - as unlike the formal Ships Register, the Boat Licence does not have a capacity to record debts secured on a vessel (and nor is the Boat Licence proof of title - in those respects seems kinda like the UK SSR vs the Part 1 (Blue Book) Register).....but that doesn't mean that no debts are secured on the boat - just no register of them exists.

There probably aren't any debts on the boat - but a lot of money to spend on a "probably"......each to there own on that one.

Here in Australia the Australian registration divides the ownership into the 64 shares scenario and liens or mortgages must be entered against that shareholding.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Here in Australia the Australian registration divides the ownership into the 64 shares scenario and liens or mortgages must be entered against that shareholding.

"Must" is good .

UK (part 1 Register - Blue Book) has the same 64 shares, and a capacity to register liens or mortgages - but no requirement to do so (albeit I beleive that if a lender does not do so, then places them at risk in the event of a dispute - but that not the same as either the debt not existing, nor being secured on the vessels).

Add in the fact that the Part 1 Registration is not proof of title / ownership (the certificate actually says this!)....mostly it is, but not absolute.........indeed, it's possible (and legal) to seperate ownership from registration.

for the (UK) SSR registration there is no Register of mortgages - and someone could get a lawnmower registered as a boat .

[grouchyturtle]

Any update on the location?

If he really was heading to Florida, I wonder if he'll show up around here in the next few, with the boat show coming up.

[grouchyturtle]

Someone in the Gemini group suggested placing a mechanics lien on the boat to stop all sales. Not sure what the real legalities of this would be though, and if it would work outside of the US.

[Sand crab]

The whole lien thing is a frickin mess. From what I've gathered they don't have to be filed as an attachment to the vessel unlike real estate liens. So you could buy a boat and do a title search which would not find that lien and then years down the road would be liable for those bills or costs. 50 states with different laws plus the Fed rules gum up the whole process.

[grouchyturtle]

Well that won't help him!

Personally, I'd just buy another Gemini, mount a cannon on it, and hunt him down.

[BobH260]

It is best to only purchase a boat that is registered in Canada (or documented in the USA). A licensed boat in Canada does not prove ownership of the vessel (as indicated across the top of the licence). There is no vessel title system in Canada.

We recently backed away from a purchase of a "licensed only" vessel in Toronto with an asking price over $100K. The vendor could not provide documentation to prove ownership sufficient for Transport Canada to register the vessel. How did his broker let him get into this situation when he bought the boat ?

It may be best that you were able to get out of this deal only loosing $1K. If there are liens on the boat, taxes owing, or perhaps the vendor does not even own the boat.

The offers to purchase I have seen the broker can usually walk away without liability if anything goes wrong.

Good luck in your search for a boat, I hope to see you on the water down south, Bob