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Old 24-03-2014, 21:27   #1
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A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Okay here we go, be gentle folks I'm new at all this and I know that I don't know and that's why I'm here!

I'm retired and my wife and I are ready for a real change of pace. For the last couple of years we have been researching the live-aboard lifestyle and what it would take to brake the bonds that constrain us to land and truly live a sailing life. We are not interested in sitting next to the dock and just existing on a sailboat, we want to be able to travel and take our home with us. We intend to, as Annie Hill puts it, "Voyage in our little ship"!

That brings me to why I'm here writing this post. For several months now I have been on a preliminary search for our new floating oasis. I have determined through both research and conversation that the best type of sailboat for us would be a full keeled, heavy displacement boat in the 39 to 42 foot range.

Here's the rub, in my scouring of the internet local marinas, and some not so local, I continue to run into the proverbial, this boat is as good as a full keel boat without the downsides etc, or the you don't really need a full keel when a fin will do just as well. I have also discovered that many a craft may have 45 feet on deck, but when you get below they are considerably lacking, like 32 feet at the water line. No thanks!

So you're asking, is there a question in all this? Yes, and that is this. Does anyone have any experience with the type of craft I'm looking for here. My basic requirements as stated above are well founded in our intended use of the boat, and I welcome opinions both in favor of my choice and those that may differ. I only ask that if you differ, please be very specific as to why you do so....Additionally I am beginning to think I will never find a suitable candidate that can provide the living space below deck that matches the length of the boat above (or is at least close). I hope I'm not being over ambitious here, but long overhangs that jack up the LOA while the builders jam two cabins and a head in 10 less feet below is ridiculous. I don't what to have to buy 55 feet of boat to get 39 feet at the water line. Can anyone relate?

I don't pretend to know all the different boat builders either current or past, and I'm not even sure that I have to hold kicking and screaming to my initial specifications. If nothing else maybe just some simple rudder orders to get me pointed in the right direction.

Looking forward to your comments. Please feel free to relate your experiences with boats you owned or now own and either loved or hated, your suggestions and if necessary maybe even your admonition if you think I need it (ha, ha)

Oh and no I don't have unlimited funds and yes I'm looking for a second, third or forth hand boat....but not a full blown project! I don't mind exchanging a reasonable amount of sweat equity in return for a lower asking price.

Oh boy, I just can't wait for this....should be interesting.

Mark
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Old 24-03-2014, 21:41   #2
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

No Replacement for Displacement, with that said all that offshore comfort goes out the window when Admiral is asked to re-locate within tight confines.....lol
We have found a good compromise with a heavy double ender as this gives you a little more waterline (can be a challenge near pointy ends for stowage).As most cruisers face some sort of compromise, the beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. Cheers,
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Old 24-03-2014, 21:50   #3
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

You're looking for a dinosaur so your best bet is in the museum

Seriously, you should find the boat that is best suited for your plans and your budget. As new a boat as fits in your budget is going to be the best buy.

When you favor the old school looks of a boat, you will always have a waterline that is much shorter than LOA. My boat has a waterline that is the same as LOA but I can assure you there's a fin keel and spade rudder.

List some brands and types that catch your eye here so we get an idea what you like and we can come up with the better options in that category
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Old 24-03-2014, 21:54   #4
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Stonefloat, I hear you load and clear, in the previous couple of years we have both done some soul searching and realized that the 500 gal fish tank, dinning room table and 12 chairs had seen their last days. It's truly all about compromise, I'm just trying to shorten the learning curve a bit. Thanks for the insight...
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Old 24-03-2014, 22:09   #5
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

s/v Jedi, I don't worry to much about the fin keel, I am sold on displacement however. I do worry about an unprotected rudder. Has that consideration ever concerned you?

To answer your question I've been looking at, in no particular order:

Allied Mistress 39'
Westsail 42'
Hans Christian 38T
Lord Nelson 41'
Tayana 38'
Morgan 383
Pearson 424
Cape George (can't find many)
Dickerson 40'
Bristol 39/40(too narrow)
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Old 25-03-2014, 00:25   #6
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Sooner or later you'll have to fess up to a budget. That is where you can actually try to match up with an appropriate boat.
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Old 25-03-2014, 00:50   #7
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Mark,
Welcome!!

I only needed to read the first half of your post, to start to see the problem that you're facing...

1) Please understand that these two desires you write about ("full keeled, heavy displacement boat", and "45 feet on deck, 32 feet at water line / below decks...considerably lacking..no thanks"), are contradictory....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpricer View Post
I have determined through both research and conversation that the best type of sailboat for us would be a full keeled, heavy displacement boat in the 39 to 42 foot range.
I have also discovered that many a craft may have 45 feet on deck, but when you get below they are considerably lacking, like 32 feet at the water line. No thanks!
As most traditional "full keeled" "heavy displacement" sailboats, DO have long overhangs (meaning much shorter waterline lengths, than lengths-over-all)....
And, most also have narrower beams, and generally the max beam is only in a small area near the center of the boat, with both ends "pointy" (even the transoms)....
They also tend to have an old/traditional "sailor's" interior design/layout that is more conducive to sailing than to living on-board, especially with today's modern lives / conveniences in mind...


These basic traditional design schemes, are what gives even boats with decent lengths-over-all / lengths-over-deck, that "considerable lacking" feeling in actual space below decks...

SO....
So, if you are dead set on your full-keel, heavy displ, traditional design...then you're going to need to accept some compromises in below deck accommodations and living space....

And, if you looking for some boats that fit your "full-keel" desires....
There is quite simply no other boat like her....and that's a Hinckley Bermuda 40!!!
This Bill Tripp design, built by the finest yacht builder in the world (Henry R. Hinckley Co.) is a wonderful, sweet, elegant, sailing yacht...with a full-keel...and with a D/L of about 390, she's deemed a "heavy-displ" boat...
Have a look...










BoatUS - Boat Reviews - Bermuda 40

Hinckley Bermuda 40 Reviews

Quote:
I'm going to be very up front with my prejudice here and tell you that, personally, I don't recall a time when my sense of style, balance and proper proportion of sailing yachts has not been influenced by the design work of the late Bill Tripp. The Bermuda 40 is a quintessential example of Tripp's art and masterful eye for near-perfect balance.
Quote:
With its classic long overhangs, perfectly pitched sheer line, wide side-decks, graceful cabin profile, and distinctive near-vertical transom, the Bermuda 40 has inspired severe lust in the heart of many a cruising sailor.

Unlike its contemporaries, the B-40 endured for a very long time, surviving both the advent and demise of the IOR regime that supplanted the CCA rule in the early 1970s. The first of these gorgeously proportioned hulls slipped down the ways in 1959. The very last hull, number 203, was launched over three decades later in 1991. So far this is the longest production run enjoyed by any fiberglass auxiliary sailboat anywhere in the world.



Another possible candidate for your specific desires, might be the Tayana 37....maybe a bit small for you, but a nice boat, nonetheless....





2) Please be aware that the "heavy" in heavy displacement is of course a relative term....and since the LWL (waterline length) of the boat with the traditional long overhangs, increases greatly when the boat is heeled, the D/L ratio can be a very misleading spec to use when trying to compare boats....

(use of the SA/D ratio can be a much better way for initial comparisons to be made....)

Again, there are MANY things that go into yacht design that are well beyond this discussions capability to educate...
Just trying to hit the highlights...





3) Yes, I have experience sailing/cruising in a full-keeled, heavy displacement boat (Tayana 37).....as well as a modified-keel, skeg-hung-rudder, medium-displ boat.....and a modern fin-keel, spade rudder, light-displa boat...including many 1000's of miles offshore and a few Atlantic crossings in them...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpricer View Post
Does anyone have any experience with the type of craft I'm looking for here. My basic requirements as stated above are well founded in our intended use of the boat, and I welcome opinions both in favor of my choice and those that may differ. I only ask that if you differ, please be very specific as to why you do so....Additionally I am beginning to think I will never find a suitable candidate that can provide the living space below deck that matches the length of the boat above (or is at least close). I hope I'm not being over ambitious here, but long overhangs that jack up the LOA while the builders jam two cabins and a head in 10 less feet below is ridiculous. I don't what to have to buy 55 feet of boat to get 39 feet at the water line. Can anyone relate?

Oh and no I don't have unlimited funds and yes I'm looking for a second, third or forth hand boat....but not a full blown project! I don't mind exchanging a reasonable amount of sweat equity in return for a lower asking price.
But, I am confused by your questions....
You stated up font what your choice was....and you're asking what others choices were???
Not sure how that will help...as others; choices are based on THEIR desires, for THEIR application, etc....and YOUR choice will be based on YOUR desires for YOUR application....(and since you've made no mention what your application is...just writing, "My basic requirements as stated above are well founded in our intended use of the boat "....we are sort-of in the dark here....yes??)

And, you do seem to be pressing the "full keel" and "heavy displacement" angles...but perhaps not fully understanding that there is a LOT that goes into sailboat design and engineering far beyond the "keel type" or its displacement, that govern the way the boat sails, responds, etc. and even more important how sea-kindly, etc. it is....
And, many of these things are far beyond the capabilities of an internet discussion board to teach....and many even require naval architects / engineers to fully flush out (certainly beyond my capabilities...)


But, if you're interested in others' choices...I'll oblige...
And, I'll include some photos of my boat as well as some reviews / quotes from yacht designers...(and maybe some videos...)


My choice for ocean crossings and long-range cruising, is my current boat...a Catalina 470....

She is a 47' 6" LOA, 42' LWL, 14' beam (carried well aft, but not to extremes) 27,700lb displ, 9550lb lead ballast, sloop.....with a modern fin/wing keel, a wonderful BIG spade rudder, and a well defined, full and round underbody and perfect-shaped forefoot, as well as a modified modern fine entry....

SA/D is 17.6....D/L is 167....B/D is 33%...LPS 130*...

She's very smooth and kindly offshore in a heavy sea...but also very fast and extremely maneuverable....

Have a look...















Annie Laurie Translant


Nav Station


C470 Projects by Boat Name












Blue Water Sailing



And, here are some quotes from Bob Perry....
Quote:
Catalina has a new flagship with its in-house-designed 470. The overall Euro-styling reflects the degree to which some American manufacturers have been influenced by the imports.
But if you look carefully, you'll see that the overall styling contribution of this cabintrunk has been increased by keeping its side well-defined. Longitudinal lines like this edge will stretch out a boat's look. It's the same trick we do with carefully placed boat and cove stripes. It's Euro-Cal.
The D/L is 157 for the fin- keel version. The shoal-draft wing keel weighs 750 pounds more than the straight fin. Catalina must have been designing to a stability standard they wanted consistent for both models.
Again, in the European style, the stern has been kept very broad. This feature is obviously driven by the quest for more useable accommodation volume, but today we are at an advantage. We have watched the sterns on the best racing boats grow in beam. The cruising boat designer can study these wide sterns and decide just how to incorporate that advantage into both speed and comfort potential.
We did the same thing with the old 12-Meter-inspired bustle feature.
The galley is wonderful with a refrigerator that opens both from the top and from the front. The owner's stateroom, with direct access to the head, is palatial by any standard. This is a big boat.
When I walk through the Catalinas I get the feeling that the designers are using some of the same dimensional parameters as I use. I can relate to these layouts.
Congratulations, Catalina.




I'm not sure how helpful I've been, but I tried....



Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 25-03-2014, 01:25   #8
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

John,

Wow, now that's a lot of info. Thanks! It's going to take me some time to get through all that. I appreciate you taking the time to put that all together, and I can assure you it will have my full attention.

Again, thank you.

Mark
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Old 25-03-2014, 01:27   #9
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Sooner or later you'll have to fess up to a budget. That is where you can actually try to match up with an appropriate boat.
Terra Nova,

Ideally, I would like to keep it under 80K...don't see why I can't do that given the inventory I've been seeing. Compromise, compromise, compromise! lol

Mark
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Old 25-03-2014, 03:04   #10
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

MJark,

You state that you want a full-keel heavy displacement boat. Yet I haven't heard the reasoning behind this desire. There are many good reasons for wanting such a boat, but quality of life/space/livibility/sailing characteristics are not some of them.

A modern fin keel/spade rudder will generally have much more room below, sail better, have a bigger cockpit and generally give greater satisfaction. If you're worried about the blue water aspects, many a modern boat has circumnavigated. Modern boats are virtually always tougher than their crews. The crews end up abandoning ship and the boat bobs along without a care afterwards.

For 80K you could look at something like a Jenneau 40.3 Sun Odysessy from say the early 2000's. These are great boats, sail well and gangs of room below. Same for a Neneteau in the same size. Or a Moody.

LOts of these boats out there, and at good prices.
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Old 25-03-2014, 04:22   #11
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I'm a bit surprised to see the Morgan 383 on your list as it is not a heavy displacement, full keeled boat. We have one and think it is a fine boat. Construction quality is high (no cored hull, robust scantlings, teak interior), it sails well, and would fit in your price range. Check out the owners' group at www.morgan38.org.

If we were buying a new (to us) cruising boat here's what we would be looking to gain over what the 383 offers:
-Longer waterline; the boat would just be faster. Yes, I DO think speed matters
-Some kind of swim platform arrangement. Fold down transoms seem nice
-I guess I'd look for in-mast furling so as not to need to go forward. I really don't like the design however but as I get older, I get it. The sailshape is poor however.
-A head that makes sense size wise. Ted Brewer likes huge heads and the 383's is just too big. The large shower intrudes into the V-berth area, making access tight.
-A bed I can get into from the side. This probably means aft cabin and a newer boat
-A U shaped galley (Morgan's is good) with a large refer, well insulated. (Morgan's is not all that great.)
-A head aft. Also a wet locker aft. You don't want to be going thru the boat with wet gear. (We use our shower as our hanging locker.)
-A well protected prop and skeg hung rudder (Morgan has these)
-Smaller headsail; self tacking seems nice.
-A cutter rig, or at least a Solent stay
-A holding tank of at least 20 gallons and the ability to gravity discharge to the sea
-Large fuel and water tankage (50 and 100 gallons respectively minimum). Also a provision to inspect the fuel tank.
-Well placed hand holds below. The new crop of boat designs seem to have missed this rather important feature...
-Some kind of bow sprit arrangement to allow anchors to be deployed farther forward (to clear hull-this is more important as the stem becomes more vertical)
-A BIG anchor locker and powerful electric windlass
-No more than 5.5' draft. Also, a mast height that you can get down the ICW with
-Ability to carry a 10' inflatable dinghy on deck (inflated)
-Tall bulwarks and wide side decks-at least wide enough to walk down them. This also requires a shroud arrangement that allows this
-Good engine access, especially to the water pumps, dip stick, and stuffing box
-Very good quality construction. Be sure that the reputation for strength, good tabbing, no water intrusion in the hull, robust hull-to-deck joint, etc. is there.
-Lots of storage in the interior. Don't just consider total volume. Many of the newer boats have huge cockpit lockers, but seem lacking in storage in the interior (in favor of a large saloon that doesn't make sense in a seaway)
-A boat that I think is good looking. (Some of the new boats look like plastic tennis shoes to me. No thanks.

Unfortunately, the one boat that I like most is the Najad 43. I'm about $300K light in the sailing kitty.....

Good luck with your search. Hope my opinion is useful.
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Old 25-03-2014, 04:51   #12
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I wish the OP good luck, but am always amused by people who insist they "need" some type of boat because of some reading and then looking for a forum to agree.
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Old 25-03-2014, 05:47   #13
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

One thing to consider is that many older designs emphasize storage space over open area in their below decks design. So, when you look down below, it looks a lot smaller than you would expect, but there is considerably more storage available than in most modern design interiors. When you move aboard, storage is a lot more important than 'space.'
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Old 25-03-2014, 06:25   #14
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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When you move aboard, storage is a lot more important than 'space.'

Not sure you can make this is such a declarative way. Large amounts of Storage only matters if you have a lot of stuff. If you are more of a minimalist you don't need as much storage. But if you have open space it can make your boat feel more comfortable and like a house rather than living in a walk in closet.

Different strokes.
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Old 25-03-2014, 06:35   #15
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

And, pushing my hobby horse, don't forget to look at the Whitby 42.
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