A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

[Dulls]

[QUOTE=Polux;1522099]If that was true you would see a small percentage of very expensive full keel, specially one offs being built. The only full keels one offs you see being built are based on very cheap very old plans and built by the owner in a very cheap way. Quite the opposite of an expensive boat.

You do see that. I think one boat builder in the USA is making long keel boats still (possibly Island Packet) and here in Australia one steel boat builder makes an Halverson Freya to order. He has built 12 that i know of. There will be others if you look around. (have a look at my boat professionally built and one of at least 12) She is sea worthy and fast and is a copy of a three time Sydney Hobart winner.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Polux

If that was true you would see a small percentage of very expensive full keel, specially one offs being built. The only full keels one offs you see being built are based on very cheap very old plans and built by the owner in a very cheap way. Quite the opposite of an expensive boat.

Originally Posted by Dulls

You do see that. I think one boat builder in the USA is making long keel boats still (possibly Island Packet) and here in Australia one steel boat builder makes an Halverson Freya to order. He has built 12 that i know of. There will be others if you look around. (have a look at my boat professionally built and one of at least 12) She is sea worthy and fast and is a copy of a three time Sydney Hobart winner.

Sorry about that. That's the problem with wide generalizations: Even when they are globally true you can always find some exceptions on a big world

Your boat seems nice and well built, certainly not one of those frequent amateur jobs you see most of the time.

Some say that the Island Packet is not really a full keel boat due to the position of the rudder, well out of the keel.



Regarding your boat I don't doubt that she is seaworthy and fast regarding that type of boats but not globally true, I mean in what regards fast. She can be a copy of a three times Hobart winner but or those wins were a long long time ago or the boat won in compensated time and that does not mean anything regarding how fast a boat is, only in what regards how well a boat is sailed and how favorable a rating his. Only real times are meaningful in what regards boat speed.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Polux

...She can be a copy of a three times Hobart winner but or those wins were a long long time ago or the boat won in compensated time and that does not mean anything regarding how fast a boat is, only in what regards how well a boat is sailed and how favorable a rating his. Only real times are meaningful in what regards boat speed.

From this article:
Famous double-enders: “Freya� and the Halvorsen story | Hot Shot Kaskelot

"Freya used 3 days, 10 hours in 1965, 3 days, 5 hours in 64 and 3 days, 6 hours on handicap in 1963. Which is astonishing consistent on a 628 nautical mile long race in all sorts of conditions – and even more amazing, her mean speed was more than 8 knots."

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

From this article:
Famous double-enders: “Freya� and the Halvorsen story | Hot Shot Kaskelot

"Freya used 3 days, 10 hours in 1965, 3 days, 5 hours in 64 and 3 days, 6 hours on handicap in 1963. Which is astonishing consistent on a 628 nautical mile long race in all sorts of conditions – and even more amazing, her mean speed was more than 8 knots."

Yes, she won in 63, 64 and 1965 in compensated time. It was a fast boat 50 years ago. A fast boat 50 years ago is a slow one now compared with what are today fast boats even when those old boats had already a fin keel ballasted bulb and were race winners.

Besides the original Freia "was planked in Douglas fir with glued spline, upon glued Queensland maple laminated frames and her deck was fiberglassed plywood..", not a steel boat and certainly lighter than one.

You can look here to a very interesting comparison (on the water with a movie) of a 50 year old boat, a very famous and modern( at the time)30ft, a winner of many races, with a contemporary 30ft of the same brand. Comparatively in performance, regarding the boats of their time, the older boat was a much faster one. Today it is about 1,5K slower than the modern 30ft, a good family cruiser with the same size but that will not be able to win today any race:
http://interestingsailboats.blogspot...us-dufour.html

Being slower does not mean by any means that the Freia 39 is not a good cruising boat.

...

[neilpride]

I think you are going to enjoy this Vid Pólux...

Transpac 2013 Unfiltered - Dorade - YouTube

[neilpride]

Another one, a historic victory..

An Historic Victory - YouTube

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I think you are going to enjoy this Vid Pólux...

Transpac 2013 Unfiltered - Dorade - YouTube

Yes thanks, I do have enjoyed the movie. I do love classic boats and Dorade is a beautiful boat.

But if you wanted to say with that that old boats are faster than new boats, I mean size by size, you are very wrong. Not even close.

Regarding racing you need to look at elapsed times (real times) not compensated times.

Even the slowest boat in the world can win a race in compensate. All it needs is a good crew and a good rating. Compensated times has nothing to do with real boat performance but with crew performance.

[neilpride]

At a average speed close to 8 knts and a peak hit of 15 knts the old lady beat modern boats like some First series , a santa cruz 52 or a reichel pugg 45, what im trying to say Pólux is..... you are linking full keel heavy boats with slow average speeds like many here in this fórum, and my point is, its all about the desing and rig plan.

The old and heavy Maclear and Harris famous Angantyr 62 ft Steel cutter full keel made a Atlantic croosing in 92 averaging 10 knts all the way to Antigua .

Cheers.

[Dulls]

Of course a long keeled cruising racing boat is slower then a modern race winner but we are comparing long keeled cruising boats with fin keeled cruising boats not cruising boats with racers.


Freya 39 - This is one of my favorite boats on the list. Designed by Trygve Halvorson, the Freya 39 is famous in Australia where it was first built. It is still the only boat to win three straight Sydney Hobart races, 63' 64' 65'. It's fast, really fast, and very seaworthy. Jim Gannon in Northern California built it as a semi-production boat in the late 70s and early 80s. Not too many around, there are also steel and still wooden Freyas out there. Pam and her late husband Andy, Wall sailed their Freya around the world and then back and forth across the Atlantic. I run into them all over the world. I've seen Freya's in Horta, Corfu and Tahiti in the last couple of years. John Kretschmer Sailing

What i like about his list is his many diverse choices of fin, long keel etc and most of us would be happy in many of his picks.

[henryk]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

We had a Whitby 42 - heavy displacement, center cockpit, aft cabin, two heads, engine room, tons of storage (literally), very large cockpit...... It would be a wonderful live aboard and we took it from Washington state to Mexico and then to the South Pacific for two years, back and forth to the rough waters of New Zealand twice. Very seaworthy but not a great sailor - it did not go to weather well at all, but the ride was comfortable and safe. But an excellent live aboard. Same for a Tayana 42 - especially the center cockpit model. Of course, many sailors are entirely happy with 37's and up too. Even 32's but that amazes me. People I know who had a 36 would not go that small again for long periods out.

I agree with Tayana 42 CC. We went cruising with one,wife, 2 children and I. Plenty of room for 4 of us, excellent i rough seas, goes to wind well and built like a tank.When we were done cruising and sold her, the new owner wasn't an experienced sailor so was hitting those damn reefs regularly and never had to haul out to fix the scrapes. If he would buy some mass production boat instead, she would go to the bottom at the very first reef he hit. Once when we were hauled out in Grenada, I went to see Mr Nick at Nicktechnic in his shop in the boat yard and there, right in the middle there was a pile of rudders, spade rudders with bent shafts.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

At a average speed close to 8 knts and a peak hit of 15 knts the old lady beat modern boats like some First series , a santa cruz 52 or a reichel pugg 45, what im trying to say Pólux is..... you are linking full keel heavy boats with slow average speeds like many here in this fórum, and my point is, its all about the desing and rig plan.

The old and heavy Maclear and Harris famous Angantyr 62 ft Steel cutter full keel made a Atlantic croosing in 92 averaging 10 knts all the way to Antigua .

Cheers.

Neil I like to discuss boats and I like all types of boats, including classic ones like Dorade that I find beautiful and I like to discuss because it is a way of learning more but for that you have to keep the discussion on serious terms. No doubt Dorade, a 52 S&S was very well sailed and deserved to win in compensate. Its real time was 293 hours 23m 18s.

A much smaller performance cruise, a First 40 made 10 hours less as well as a X41. Today many performance cruising boats have similar performances to a First 40 or x41 and while the Dorade is a hugely expensive boat needing a very big crew the 40/41ft can go with a much smaller crew, and even if not at the same speed, can be sailed solo.

http://www.transpacyc.com/docs/2013r..._standings.pdf

You say that a R&P 44? did worse and that's true and what that proves on an oceanic race? That they missed completely the routing? That the 22 year old boat is not in great condition and has not a proper set of sails? That the crew is not a very good one?

Regarding race results we look at what a given type of boat can do when well sailed like the Dorade, not to what a fast boat badly sailed can do. If really very badly sailed even the fastest boat can be last

Regarding the Santa Cruz 52 you should not be looking to the one that made the worse result but the better, the one that like the Dorade was well sailed. It arrived one day and a half sooner than the Dorade. The SC52 is also an old design, a 22 year old one.

The Transpac is not a great race to compare performance of older boats with new boats because neither the global level is to high or uniform, neither there are a significant number of new boats (less than 10 years) neither the number of entries is high enough.

If you are really enjoy this type of comparisons and want to see what really is the difference in performance between full keel boats (or old boats) and new designs I would suggest the Sydney-Hobart or the Fastnet, but remember you should not compare the best sailed boats of one type with the badly sailed ones of another but only the best sailed boats of each type

[boatman61]

These threads always make me smile... folk talk about 'Blue Water Cruisers' then hold up a short hop of 600 miles as an example.. talk is about hull speeds etc..
This is all very well going coastal but anyone who's done serious ocean sailing will tell you.. all that goes outa the window and speed is determined by sea state, winds and the need to keep the fatigue levels manageable...
Unless of course your on someone else's boat and you and the 12 other crew don't care if you beat the $h!t out of it, break things and blow out sails..
As my last trip demonstrated... a boat may be capable of doing 170-210miles a day.. as we did steadily for the first two weeks.. but when systems die... along with the breeze that pushes you along that soon drops... 2 or 3 crew can only do so much... then the observers start theorising...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

These threads always make me smile... folk talk about 'Blue Water Cruisers' then hold up a short hop of 600 miles as an example.. talk is about hull speeds etc..
This is all very well going coastal but anyone who's done serious ocean sailing will tell you.. all that goes outa the window and speed is determined by sea state, winds and the need to keep the fatigue levels manageable...
Unless of course your on someone else's boat and you and the 12 other crew don't care if you beat the $h!t out of it, break things and blow out sails..
As my last trip demonstrated... a boat may be capable of doing 170-210miles a day.. as we did steadily for the first two weeks.. but when systems die... along with the breeze that pushes you along that soon drops... 2 or 3 crew can only do so much... then the observers start theorising...

Yes I agree with you. For crossing Oceans fast on the trade winds on a cruising mode and without a full crew the best boats are the ones derived from Solo racers, the ones that are designed to go fast on autopilot and with a small amount of sail (they are light).

Of course that does not mean that one would not prefer to do it slowly and with more "style". There is tastes for everything

[letsgetsailing3]

I'm going to repeat my post from the second page of this thread.

"I'm afraid this is the bit where everyone pushes the boat THEY bought. After all, they voted with their hard-earned cash, didn't they? OK, maybe someone else will push for some boat they saw at the dock, or saw anchored out, or read about on the internet.

But the truth is that selecting a boat is 70% emotional, 30% logical. Boats aren't simply practical, they're also a bit of art.

You'll have to look around and find what YOU want. You can ask others what they like, but they'll come up with practical reasons to justify what they like aesthetically. Don't let people here talk you into or out of any given boat.

My advice is to get out there and look at these boats on your list. You can't just read about them, go see them. There are lots of trade-offs, but it's got to be about YOUR preference, not some other guys on a cruisers forum.

BTW, any boat on your list will get the job done. So get the one that makes your heart thump a little faster than the others."

[SaltyMonkey]

And if you're going the coconut route but head south to get around Cape of Good Hope?