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Old 25-03-2014, 19:45   #76
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I don't think the experience means much, so much as where you want to sail and what you want to get out of sailing:

I'm of two boat persuasions depending on where I want to sail:

For higher lats: the classic wine or skeg, possibly pilothouse protection, something that is comfortable, solid, for going around Hope lets say, on a circumnav. (unfortunately slow in the trades)

For lower lats: the Jeannean / Bennie sled, with duo rudders, fast and fun, shallow. You gotta have a race bug in ja. on a equatorial circumnav. (unfortunately not safe @ Hope)

And finally there is BUDGET $$$$
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Old 25-03-2014, 19:57   #77
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

To the OP; maybe I missed it but have you done much sailing and/or spent much time on a boat?

I am assuming from what you have written that you haven't so this thread appears to be one of the hundreds of idealist conversations that are all over the internet. Sunny days, gorgeous sunsets and everything working in harmony as you "voyage" into your golden years.

The bottom line is that the boat is kind of irrelevant in a broad sense. Lots will do and none are perfect. People spend years researching but never buy. Their fun is in the conversation.

The important thing is what happens next? That's when the rubber hits the road. Have you ever slept on a boat? It is a lot like sleeping outside as you are part of the climate but have a roof of sorts over you. Flushing the toilet isn't like living on land. Systems bread down a lot more than you are used to. You don't just hop in the shower. It is often a surprise that the dream is not reality.

If you haven't chartered somewhere it would be a really good idea to do so and at least get a feel for it. I'm thinking Annapolis in August.
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Old 25-03-2014, 20:05   #78
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
You should ask the mods to change the title then. I assume you already read the hundreds of "what boat for me" threads.

I've now owned 2 cruisers and probably still couldn't answer the question for myself. My main recommendation are to get a boat for what you REALLY will be doing on it, and to listen to your heart more than your head because regardless the boat will take more than you can.

keys for me have been:
- you live on the boat more than your sail it, be sure you like the interior for this!
- light wind sailing happens and pisses you off a lot more than heavy weather and you will experience a LOT more light wind than heavy conditions (assuming you are trainable), so don't get a dog of a sailer if sailing is important to you
- it doesn't matter if others like your boat!
In a word, right! I guess that is exactly what it all boils down to at the end of the day. Thanks!
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Old 25-03-2014, 20:12   #79
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
The Allied Boat Company motto was "She'll cross an ocean if you will," and the Allied Seawind (30 foot version) was the first fiberglass boat to circumnavigate.

The Allied Mistress is on several recommended bluewater boat lists, and by most accounts are sturdily built. There's a guy who could have used your recommendation a couple of years ago, as R Lee Winters just sailed his Allied Mistress around the world a couple of years ago. He posted a few videos from different locations on Youtube, and seemed to be having a grand time of it.

Here's a review:
Allied Seabreeze, Mistress, Princess: A Diverse Fleet of Classic Plastics - Cruising World

If you have some supporting detail for your opinion about these boats, please share. Otherwise, we'll just consider it a vote for your own boat. A T37, is it?
I've been looking very closely at an Allied Mistress that's for sale in VA. I've talked extensively to the owner and he has provided me enough pics to choke a horse and a copy of the last survey. The boat looks fairly well maintained, and in good order. I just didn't know much about the line. They don't seem to pop up much in conversation and general research. Until your post I was unaware of anyone that had sailed one any distance or for a protracted length of time. I will do more research on this, thanks for the additional info.

Mark
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Old 25-03-2014, 20:46   #80
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
If you haven't chartered somewhere it would be a really good idea to do so and at least get a feel for it. I'm thinking Annapolis in August.
NO NO NO Too HOT and HUMID! They will NEVER get a boat then!

Wait till October.
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Old 26-03-2014, 00:28   #81
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard




Hull Type: Long Keel Rig Type: Masthead Ketch
LOA: 39.67' / 12.09m LWL: 29.83' / 9.09m
Beam: 12.00' / 3.66m Listed SA: 705 ft2 / 65.49 m2
Draft (max.) 4.50' / 1.37m Draft (min.)
Disp. 20800 lbs./ 9435 kgs. Ballast: 5600 lbs. / 2540 kgs.
SA/Disp.: 14.97 Bal./Disp.: 26.92% Disp./Len.: 349.83
Designer: Arthur Edmunds
Builder: Allied Boat Co. (USA)
Construct.: FG Bal. type: Lead
First Built: 1971 Last Built: 1978 # Built: 60
AUXILIARY POWER (orig. equip.)
Make: Westerbeke Model: 4-107
Type: Diesel HP: 37
TANKS
Water: 160 gals. / 606 ltrs. Fuel: 80 gals. / 303 ltrs.
RIG DIMENSIONS KEY
I: 44.00' / 13.41m J: 14.75' / 4.50m
P: 39.00' / 11.89m E: 14.50' / 4.42m
PY: 23.00' / 7.01m EY: 8.50' / 2.59m
SPL: ISP:
SA(Fore.): 324.50 ft2 / 30.15 m2 SA(Main): 282.75 ft2 / 26.27 m2
Total(calc.)SA: 705.00 ft2 / 65.49 m2 DL ratio: 349.83
SA/Disp: 14.97 Est. Forestay Len.: 46.41' / 14.14m
BUILDER Allied Boat Company Inc. (USA)
DESIGNER Arthur Edmunds
NOTES
Available in aft (drawing top) and center cockpit (cutaway bottom) versions.
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Old 26-03-2014, 02:00   #82
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Being the owner of a "Sun Fast", you know as well as I that the stability and comfort of a boat moving forward has to do with the way it is sailed.
Any boat, sailed wrong will be an uncomfortable ride,
And what type of boat or keel for that matter only comes up on this forum.. over the last 10 years of living on our boat and cruising the waters from Alaska to Mexico, the main topic of conversation that comes up among cruisers is "who serves a good hamburger around and where to get Ice Cream "
As for my Values in picking a good blue water boat, I look for one that will make a "fast and safe passage" ....

Leaving for Hawaii and points further next month...............
Mark,

You should pay attention to this post. Blue water passages are in reality a very small portion of your sailing life. Think of a 1 year trip europe-carribean- Europe. How much blue water passagemaking will you see?

Say 3-4 weeks Canary Islands to the carribean and 3-4 weeks Bermuda-Azores-Continent. So in a full year 52 weeks, you spend say 6-7 weeks on passage. The rest will be coastal sailing between anchorages/marinas/islands.

That being the case - why are you thinking passagemaking as your nr 1 criteria? Even on an RTW of say 3-4 years - actual passagemaking will not be more than the 15% used on a europe/carribean/europe trip.

Personally, I go for the livability/space/etc because you'll spend much more time living on the boat than passagemaking.

By the way - when you're with other boats - look around. All the parties and social gatherings are on the twin wheel modern boats - reason being these are much more comfortable

And as Randy up above says - proper sail management and sailing is about 90% of the comfort on a boat.

I wouldn't worry about the rudder getting knocked off. Through my job, I hear about virtually all these types of accidents - The only one I can remember involving a rudder coming off, was a german boat. Due to poor maintenance.
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Old 26-03-2014, 03:37   #83
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Not sure you can make this is such a declarative way. Large amounts of Storage only matters if you have a lot of stuff. If you are more of a minimalist you don't need as much storage. But if you have open space it can make your boat feel more comfortable and like a house rather than living in a walk in closet.

Different strokes.
The point that many of us writers have been trying to make is that a "proper" blue water (or even coastal cruiser) live aboard DOES need a significant amount of storage for non-minimalist items such as: food, boat/engine spares, books (reference, guide, and pleasure reading), charts, fuel, water, ground tackle, fenders, dock lines, ditch bag, filters & lubricants, paints & painting gear, tools & repair materials, snorkel/dive gear, medical supplies, toiletries (incl. sunscreen), jerry jugs, TP, life raft, propane, sun covers, winch handles & snatch blocks, hatch boards, e-bilge pump & hose, head treatment chemicals (vinegar, baby oil, anti-smell stuff), weather gear">foul weather gear, PFDs (4-6 min), MOB gear, safety harnesses & teathers, water collecting gear, flare kit, jack lines, storm and light air sails, sufficiently large house bank of batteries, shore power cords, dinghy & OB motor w/ fuel cans/oars. I challenge you to convince us that any of these items are not essential to have on board except perhaps the OB motor and life raft. Please note that I did not include any electronics, watermaker, motorcycles/bicycles, musical instruments, generator.

The other salient point is that a big open space below, while certainly appealing in calm conditions, is at best akward in a seaway and perhaps dangerous (nothing to hold on to, relatively larger distances to be thrown, etc. I've not been on a boat that feels like a walk-in closet.
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Old 26-03-2014, 04:13   #84
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Sorry but I got to say this..
Their formula over simplifies a lot involved variables and leaves the rest simply out of the equatation. Do not trust !

BR Teddy
You're absolutely right. This formula will not give you a definitive answer. But it will give you a close approximation that you can use to compare boats.

A true calculation is very complicated and requires a lot more information

But this one is useful
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Old 26-03-2014, 06:28   #85
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by Dale Hedtke View Post
The point that many of us writers have been trying to make is that a "proper" blue water (or even coastal cruiser) live aboard DOES need a significant amount of storage for non-minimalist items such as: food, boat/engine spares, books (reference, guide, and pleasure reading), charts, fuel, water, ground tackle, fenders, dock lines, ditch bag, filters & lubricants, paints & painting gear, tools & repair materials, snorkel/dive gear, medical supplies, toiletries (incl. sunscreen), jerry jugs, TP, life raft, propane, sun covers, winch handles & snatch blocks, hatch boards, e-bilge pump & hose, head treatment chemicals (vinegar, baby oil, anti-smell stuff), foul weather gear, PFDs (4-6 min), MOB gear, safety harnesses & teathers, water collecting gear, flare kit, jack lines, storm and light air sails, sufficiently large house bank of batteries, shore power cords, dinghy & OB motor w/ fuel cans/oars. I challenge you to convince us that any of these items are not essential to have on board except perhaps the OB motor and life raft. Please note that I did not include any electronics, watermaker, motorcycles/bicycles, musical instruments, generator.
I carry almost everything (vinegar does nothing for the head and I properly lube my head pump so I don't use baby oil) you listed with the exception of the life raft (don't think it's necessary since we carry a RIB inflated on deck or towed). We also have clothes for two working professionals. Our dog is with us so you also have many of the same items for her like life jackets, food, water, dog toys, etc. And we do this on a 31 foot boat with an open plan and what would be considered limited storage. And don't forget the booze; lots of bottles of that to carry too.

You have to smart about it and learn what is truly necessary. I have been on cruising boats where the spare parts inventory rivals West Marine. Do I need a spare alternator, starter, water pump, injectors, fuel pumps, etc. or just a couple of rebuild kits and some filters? Sure I would like to carry more tools since I do all my own work on the boat, but you learn to cut those down too.

Quote:
The other salient point is that a big open space below, while certainly appealing in calm conditions, is at best akward in a seaway and perhaps dangerous (nothing to hold on to, relatively larger distances to be thrown, etc. I've not been on a boat that feels like a walk-in closet.
For the most part, I have not seen this as a big problem. Our Catalina has good hand holds and is well laid out. But I have seen boats that do have a lack of hand holds. This can be fixed easy enough.

A good friend has a Pacific Seacraft 36. Its a great boat and we both like the way it sails. But then you go below and you get that cave/walk-in closet like feeling. It's nowhere near as light and open feeling as our Catalina. And our boat is 5 feet shorter. If I was looking for a boat to take on a 1-2 year circumnavigation it would be high on the list. But I would never consider living aboard full time on it.

But again, this is all just my opinion. Like its been said here many times before, boats are a series of compromises. It's up to the individual to decide what balance of those compromises works for them.

And to be clear, I was responding to someone who made a statement as an absolute about storage being more important than space. I was providing an opposing view point for the OP.

Fair winds,

Jesse
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Old 26-03-2014, 07:05   #86
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by Dale Hedtke View Post
The point that many of us writers have been trying to make is that a "proper" blue water (or even coastal cruiser) live aboard DOES need a significant amount of storage for non-minimalist items such as: food, boat/engine spares, books (reference, guide, and pleasure reading), charts, fuel, water, ground tackle, fenders, dock lines, ditch bag, filters & lubricants, paints & painting gear, tools & repair materials, snorkel/dive gear, medical supplies, toiletries (incl. sunscreen), jerry jugs, TP, life raft, propane, sun covers, winch handles & snatch blocks, hatch boards, e-bilge pump & hose, head treatment chemicals (vinegar, baby oil, anti-smell stuff), foul weather gear, PFDs (4-6 min), MOB gear, safety harnesses & teathers, water collecting gear, flare kit, jack lines, storm and light air sails, sufficiently large house bank of batteries, shore power cords, dinghy & OB motor w/ fuel cans/oars. I challenge you to convince us that any of these items are not essential to have on board except perhaps the OB motor and life raft. Please note that I did not include any electronics, watermaker, motorcycles/bicycles, musical instruments, generator.

The other salient point is that a big open space below, while certainly appealing in calm conditions, is at best akward in a seaway and perhaps dangerous (nothing to hold on to, relatively larger distances to be thrown, etc. I've not been on a boat that feels like a walk-in closet.

Yes but the argument is carried to absurd lengths and regularly people look at modern interiors ( or exteriors) and make comments that do not reflect any experience of long distance sailing in these boats.

Ive sailed and delivered mainly modern or near modern boats. ( I mean there isn't much else this side of the pond).

Firstly short of very high latitude sailing, most ocean sailing is extremely simple and uncomplicated. You don't need "handholds" all over the place. Most modern boats do a adequate job. Its also trivial to add some more if you really feel the need. But every year 100s cross the atlantic in ordinary modern production boats.


IN practice, modern yachts, with the wider beams and beam carried aft, tend to actually have far more space available then older wine glass narrow beam cruisers. Even if that space isn't greatly subdivided, its not difficult to do so. Personally I see no particular issue in storage spaces in modern yachts, especially if you chose the number of berths appropriately and avoid stuffing the space with such berths.

Then you have the reliability of new ( or newer) gear, rigging and engines, on older designs, this stuff is OLD, old means it may fail. often you'll spend a fortune in bringing older designs up to the reliability of modern vessels.


Much debate is given to keels and in particular rudders. Keels have no effect in themselves on stability or "blue water ability", The penchant for US advocates for long keels, belies the fact that as a group US sailors are not worldwide blue water ( or even rough water high latitude) sailors in any numbers. Other nationalities and their boats seem to have far less " invested" in such debates. This single issue might be useful to note.!

Spade rudders, are extremely common, and for the vast majority safe and secure. I would argue that ocean sailing puts far less stress on rudders then aggressive coastal sailing, marinas manoeuvring and racing. Even then its not difficult to rig an independent rudder system if you are the belt and braces type. What a modern spade ruder excels at is hydrodynamic performance, and its that feature you'll use every sailing day. Not to mention the usefulness of being able to steer while make sternway and manoeuvre in tight marina spaces, issues that older full keel designers never had to worry about!

( A thruster is useful too)

Now look at some of the advantages of modern shoal body canoe forms , The vast majority of your cruising time as carstenb very accurately points out will be spent either on short passages, or at anchor or in marinas. You will need to "live" comfortably on this boat. Hence the benefit of good interior volume, spaciness, liveability , good ventilation , light , access to "mod cons" will actually be your defining decisions ( and if not of you , they will figure highly in your partners mind!)


Its worth looking at the types of posts here on CF, the majority are on interior issues, electrics, mod con issues, few are on keels, rudders and what like.

For example , a large galley, with all facilities and work space, is an area, requiring your mental consideration far and away from things like keel decisions A poor galley can not be compensated for and will be a source of continuous dissension, a keel type choice will not. Nor is the uselessness of a galley in a Force 10, really much of a point, unlike some which side track the debates into extremes. You will often spend more time in the galley then you will sailing and most definitely good results in the former are more appreciated then expertise in the latter.!!!

For example many like the linear "euro galley" as it lets more then one person work in the galley, thats often very useful. but of cource its harder in such designs to brace yourself in a seaway, but sometimes you have a seatback as a bum rest etc. Its a compromise with the emphasis on usability in common situations.

Good large cockpits, are a must , you will spend huge amount of time socialising eating and relaxing in such areas, you need space, seating and comfort. Open transom deals with the water exit issue. ( mind you its a curse for loosing things, so I prefer only partially open). The ability to carry a small preferably hardbody RIB as a tender is very useful and some modern designs are addressing this with tender garages, older designs almost never address the issue. Twin wheels can be very useful to allow ease of stern to mooring and ingress and egress, this may figure in your cruising plans.

You will spend most of your time, handling light airs, the last thing you need is a heavy boat with lots of wetted area, most long keels are narrow beam and quite tender. Tender is a pain. sailing upright is faster and more comfortable.

Getting a heavy boat moving is a pain, sitting around, stopped, looking at a mirror sea gets kinda boring when its experienced repeatedly.

European production designs , which make up the vast majority of boats on the planet, are designed to be used in Northern European waters, as well as the ubiquitous Med cruising and charter, hence they are designed to be adequate for rough water cruising, the like of which many in the US don't actually experience. ( have you tried the west of ireland or scotland in summer, or the North sea, I suspect not) .Yet these designs predominate leisure cruising in these areas. That alone should provide some guidance.


As carstenb and I and others have said, buy a boat for what you really intend to do with it, evaluate what that is. A boat for an extended polar trip is very different to a warm water, risk averse leisure cruise, don't mix up the two..


As a final shot across the bows, you might look at the vessels, long time cruisers like Cornell, Dashew, Beth and Evans, etc are using, see any full keels!

Dave
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Old 26-03-2014, 07:12   #87
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Definitely agree! The best thing to do with a teak deck is replace it with fiberglass or better yet avoid it in the first place. You'll be fixing plenty no need to go spending weeks caulking leaky seams ect. I love wood on a boat and a little is nice but too much and that's a LOT of varnishing/oiling/cleaning time!

Teak decks will last a very long time if the initial installation was done to a high standard and they are maintained correctly. Here is a shot of our 32 year old decks that I recently reseamed, almost like new, no leaks.
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Old 26-03-2014, 07:48   #88
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Yes but the argument is carried to absurd lengths and regularly people look at modern interiors ( or exteriors) and make comments that do not reflect any experience of long distance sailing in these boats.
Your post will never stop the readers of old books that are written about old and out of date designs. To those people you may as well tell them their God is wrong.
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Old 26-03-2014, 07:48   #89
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Teak decks will last a very long time if the initial installation was done to a high standard and they are maintained correctly. Here is a shot of our 32 year old decks that I recently reseamed, almost like new, no leaks.
+1 on this. Ours is in great shape. Takes very little maintenance. Great non-skid in all conditions. Very durable and resistant to all manner of dings and spills.

I'm also amused by people who complain about how hard it is to maintain teak on a cruising boat. When you live on board for extended periods, it's just part of the regular maintenance that all homes (floating or on land) require. So far I've not found it hard to slap on a few coats of varnish or a layer of oil (we do both) as needed.

I suppose my standards are low. I don't need to have a boat-show gleam to my rail. I just need it to be protected. But in my limited experience, on the scale of difficult maintenance tasks, it's not that hard.
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Old 26-03-2014, 08:22   #90
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2 helms--really?

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...All the parties and social gatherings are on the twin wheel modern boats...
Ummmm...OK.

It seems this requirement for 2 helms is a recent fad brought about to work around a design shortcoming that prevents the helmsman from seeing around the cabin on boats with too much beam carried aft.
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