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Old 25-03-2014, 13:20   #61
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Don't get too hung up on a big size. *Shameless self promotion coming*

Let me pitch this to you, instead you have your wife fly to the locations where you choose to cruise. The rest of the time you singlehand to different destinations or take a crewmember. That way you can get by with a smaller boat! Say a lovely 1961 Columbia 29 MkI for instance! (full disclosure, my boat up for sale ) A beautiful modified full keel S&S design plenty blue water capable. The biggest plus is you now have $72,000 more in the cruising kitty! That's alot of provisions, achorage fees, and even a few years in a marina!

This ad has been brought to you buy appick seller of a fine quality used yacht!

In all seriousness though, lots of folks think they need more room than they actually do when making this transition. They also seem to jump right for the big boat when they could really be better suited something smaller to coastal cruise on to start with. That way your learning how to sail, handle the boat, and avoid bumping docks or heaven forbid other boats! Have you thought of how after buying and launching that 39+ft new to you boat, how you're going to get it into and out of the slip with what sounds like not alot of experience? I know you said you sailed on smaller keel boats, so had I before buying this boat. What I hadn't done and what the owner/ skipper usually does is dock and manuever. It's hair raising enough the first few times with a sub $10k 20 some foot boat . I can't imagine learning all this while having $80k+ on the line and 39+ft of boat. Not that it can't be done just something to think about.

If you start small on say a 30+ft boat for coastal cruising you can find out if your wife does really like sailing and the cruising life, while cruising for a few weeks at a time. If after 3-4 years you are both in agreement you've now had the time to learn proper boat handling, that will make working that 39+ft boat worlds easier. On the other hand if it turns out your both completely satisfied with the cruising your doing you've won again! If it turns out she or both of you just aren't having fun or using the boat you're not into it for $80k+, you could easily find a mid 30ft boat ready to sail in the $15-40K. Remember the maintenance cost of boats goes up exponentially by the ft. Things like rigging, blocks, furlers, halyards, sheets, and engines all go up in size considerably. It's much easier and cheaper to learn how to work on and replace parts of a vessel when they are smaller and the cost of screwing up is 10x or so less.

Good luck and happy hunting!
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Old 25-03-2014, 13:32   #62
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Terra Nova,

Ideally, I would like to keep it under 80K...don't see why I can't do that given the inventory I've been seeing. Compromise, compromise, compromise! lol

Mark

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Old 25-03-2014, 14:14   #63
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Baba = TEAK DECKKKX
Tashiba = TEAK DECKKKX

E-V-I-L E-V-I-L E-V-I-L
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Old 25-03-2014, 14:18   #64
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Sailorboy1,

Certainly not interested in agreement, only information.
You should ask the mods to change the title then. I assume you already read the hundreds of "what boat for me" threads.

I've now owned 2 cruisers and probably still couldn't answer the question for myself. My main recommendation are to get a boat for what you REALLY will be doing on it, and to listen to your heart more than your head because regardless the boat will take more than you can.

keys for me have been:
- you live on the boat more than your sail it, be sure you like the interior for this!
- light wind sailing happens and pisses you off a lot more than heavy weather and you will experience a LOT more light wind than heavy conditions (assuming you are trainable), so don't get a dog of a sailer if sailing is important to you
- it doesn't matter if others like your boat!
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Old 25-03-2014, 14:29   #65
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Here is a link to USsailings page of calculators
Angle of Vanishing Stability

Use these to calculate things like angle of vanishing stability etc etc.
Sorry but I got to say this..
Their formula over simplifies a lot involved variables and leaves the rest simply out of the equatation. Do not trust !

BR Teddy
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Old 25-03-2014, 14:32   #66
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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The Mistress is a nice boat, but I am not sure I'd call it exactly "blue water." The Wetsnail is just that. You mean Tayana 37, a fine boat but with some potential issues (all of them have issues, I'm sure, but I happen to know the T37's intimately).

The Pearson would be a good choice, I'd think.

What about a Valiant 40? Not "full keel" but ...
The Allied Boat Company motto was "She'll cross an ocean if you will," and the Allied Seawind (30 foot version) was the first fiberglass boat to circumnavigate.

The Allied Mistress is on several recommended bluewater boat lists, and by most accounts are sturdily built. There's a guy who could have used your recommendation a couple of years ago, as R Lee Winters just sailed his Allied Mistress around the world a couple of years ago. He posted a few videos from different locations on Youtube, and seemed to be having a grand time of it.

Here's a review:
Allied Seabreeze, Mistress, Princess: A Diverse Fleet of Classic Plastics - Cruising World

If you have some supporting detail for your opinion about these boats, please share. Otherwise, we'll just consider it a vote for your own boat. A T37, is it?
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Old 25-03-2014, 14:58   #67
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Some can be had for real close to 80K, one I just bought I paid about that for.
The IP's seem to get mentioned often it seems to me. but yeah, were missed in this discussion. None of them tug at my heart strings, but always seem at the forefront in my mind when it comes to decent construction and built to "use".
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Old 25-03-2014, 15:20   #68
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Baba = TEAK DECKKKX

Tashiba = TEAK DECKKKX



E-V-I-L E-V-I-L E-V-I-L

Definitely agree! The best thing to do with a teak deck is replace it with fiberglass or better yet avoid it in the first place. You'll be fixing plenty no need to go spending weeks caulking leaky seams ect. I love wood on a boat and a little is nice but too much and that's a LOT of varnishing/oiling/cleaning time!
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Old 25-03-2014, 15:51   #69
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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The IP's seem to get mentioned often it seems to me. but yeah, were missed in this discussion. None of them tug at my heart strings, but always seem at the forefront in my mind when it comes to decent construction and built to "use".

They aren't beautiful or fast, sort of very utilitarian, best looking boat I saw when looking was an absolutely perfect Baba, but I'd have to be retired just to keep that boat looking like she should. But it was gorgeous
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Old 25-03-2014, 16:30   #70
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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True full keel cruisers , especially in your size range are few and far between anymore. It sounds like you would do well with more of a long fin and heavy skeg type boat. I agree with your assessment of short waterlines, avoid those... or choose your boat by waterline rather than overall length! Why not a Passport, Valiant or something along those lines? With a boat like a Passport it will sail circles around the Hans Christian and have an interior that's every bit as nice. Maybe Cape Dory made a 45 footer with a short full keel? Or a Baba 40/Tashiba 40.
Stick to your guns, For get those light spade rudder boats... spades do fail all the time. I personally know of several. I'm not saying no one should have a spade, but they are not what some people want either.
As far as I can tell ... all your requirements are met by a Baba/Panda/Tashiba 40. cost is the question....
I'm with Cheech on this. The real candidates if you want to stick to your criteria are the Baba/Panda/Tashiba 40's. The fact that they still command a high price is in part due to their build quality and stoutness, which is pretty much second to none.

MPricer, I just have to say I really don't think recounting a few incidents with spade rudders on navy ships is a good argument for why they are problematic.

And regarding spade rudders in general, arguing against them is a bit like saying you should cut your mast from 60' to 5' because that presents a much lower risk of lightning strike. If you're a good captain, both in terms of the operation and maintenance of your boat, you'll be fine with one. However, I say that having just fixed a poorly done repair to the rudder skeg on my Valiant that was clearly the result of impact. Must have been poor captaining on the previous owner's part. All the same, would not scare me off a spade rudder. They make your boat so much more maneuverable and responsive than even a skeg hung, there is really no comparison.
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Old 25-03-2014, 16:31   #71
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A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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They aren't beautiful or fast, sort of very utilitarian, best looking boat I saw when looking was an absolutely perfect Baba, but I'd have to be retired just to keep that boat looking like she should. But it was gorgeous

Burn! Haha err wait unless you were talking bout the baba? I thought you were saying that about IP's with the quote... I'm confused!
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Old 25-03-2014, 16:52   #72
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I'd say a few things here

(A) buy a boat for the 80% of things you will really use it for . Not the 20% you might dream and never do.

(B) stability is a complex subject, it's certainly not a function of long or short keels.

(c) if you intend to live on board, then buy a boat that fulfils that requirement.

(D) don't over sweat things like rudders , it's a newbie thing. 100000000s of boats floating around with spades for example. If concerned make and fit a usable emergency rudder.

(E) sail as many designs as you can.

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Old 25-03-2014, 16:58   #73
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Burn! Haha err wait unless you were talking bout the baba? I thought you were saying that about IP's with the quote... I'm confused!

No, I was talking about an IP. You have to admit, they aren't the prettiest boat around, but beauty is sometimes only skin deep as in I'd rather have a roomy, comfortable well built boat than a pretty one. (insert sexist comment here )
I am not saying a Baba isn't well built or quality, they are both, but way too much upkeep for me. High maintenance
just I think an IP38 is as "big" living wise as some considerably larger boats and has a lot of well thought out storage. There are prettier and faster boats than an IP though, but from a living in perspective an IP seems to have a lot going for it
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Old 25-03-2014, 18:47   #74
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
Sorry but I got to say this..
Their formula over simplifies a lot involved variables and leaves the rest simply out of the equatation. Do not trust !

BR Teddy
AVS is the most misused, distrustful, and misquoted metric ever invented in the fairy land of yacht design.
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Old 25-03-2014, 18:59   #75
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Speaking from personal experience I think sometimes the fixation with the heavy blue water cruiser is a symptom of a lack of confidence in one's own sailing capability. When we were novice sailors we were fixated on the idea of the full keel, heavy displacement, Wetsnail type cruisers. There was a security in feeling that the boat could take care of us in bad situations and, when needed, compensate for our mistakes. (We've all seen "The Perfect Storm," right? That Wetsnail was still upright after all else was lost and the crew had long since bailed.)

We have owned both heavy displacement full keeled cruisers and fin keeled spade rudder medium displacement boats. They both have their admirers (fanatics) and their uses in the cruising world, and again it comes back to intended use.

One thing I will mention that I don't think I have seen mentioned in this thread pertaining to intended use is maneuverability. A full keeled boat is really exceptional at a few things, tracking straight and true, heaving-to, self-steering and ultimate stability. What they are not great at is thrifty maneuvering in tight places. And backing....at least with the larger ones we've owned, backing sucked. And I will second the opinion of the poster that mentioned that sailing at a 20+ degree angle of heel all the time is not really all that fun, especially when you have to go below to try to perform some task underway.

We find that our feelings about full keels have changed over the years because we spend all our time cruising close to shore, we pick our way through narrow inlets in the Bay, we go in and out of anchorages, maneuvering through the crowds for a spot to anchor, we visit unfamiliar marinas, we pull up to restaurant visitor docks for lunch or dinner. Where once the Cape Dory was the boat of our dreams (we've owned 3 of them), now not so much. We find our Catalinas have been much handier under those types of situations.

It really is very hard to speak with authority about what you need in a boat unless you have had experience with actually sailing a variety of designs. Again I would stress, as others have also, be honest with yourself about your intended use. Don't hang yourself up on the blue water cruiser unless you are certain you intend to cruise a lot of blue water passages. You will sacrifice a lot of livability and maneuverability for that ocean going capability. It's not necessary, and you will be underway a small percentage of the time, you will be living aboard 100% of the time (or so I assume). I will suggest that with a good design in a medium displacement fin keel boat the difference between you seeing it as a coastal cruiser and a passagemaker is going to be your experience level and comfort and confidence in the boat. That will come with time.
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