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Old 25-03-2014, 08:36   #31
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Not sure you can make this is such a declarative way. Large amounts of Storage only matters if you have a lot of stuff. If you are more of a minimalist you don't need as much storage. But if you have open space it can make your boat feel more comfortable and like a house rather than living in a walk in closet.

Different strokes.
As my wife says, " I don't want to feel like I'm living in a cave. Some boats feel that way for sure. Gotta find that balance.
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:57   #32
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Suijin

Thanks for the input here, I'm not locked into the full keel, I am concerned with stability and the practicability of taking the boat on trans oceanic passage. I am not a fan of spade hung rudders. I think some protection is necessary, lots of crap to be found in the ocean. In my 30 years at sea I've seen first hand significant damage done to unprotected rudders from the mysterious something we hit somewhere. I was glad in a couple of those cases to have two mounted. I get the fact that any floating object, sailboats included, can cross an ocean, I guess my question now becomes, which ones would experienced sailors pick to do it in if they had to do it alone.
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:00   #33
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Carstenb,

Yes you guessed right...I am concerned with the issue of stability and that has been the driving force in my search thus far. It is becoming quite obvious that many on this forum do not share my belief that full keel, heavy displacement equals stability. That's probably a good thing, and certainly why I'm here. Not being a sailboat owner, having never bought one and only sailed on very small keel boats I'm trying to find middle ground for my search. Of course, I'm probably hooked on the full keel, heavy displacement angle because it's been owners of those types of boats that I've been talking to the most. Anyway, I have time, there is no rush and this exercise will no doubt help to flush out my true expectations.

Thanks
So based on this I would recommend you do some internet research on overall stability vs. initial stability. It's true that full keel, narrow beam, heavy displacement hulls have a higher over all stability. The down side is that you need to heal much further over before you get to that stability point. As a result those type of boats will typically sail at a heal angle of 20-30 degrees or more. Modern hulls with fin keels will have a higher initial stability. This means that they sail more flat footed and will typically sail at a heal angle of 10-15 degrees.

This may not seem like a big difference but high heal angles is one of the biggest reasons women don't like sailing (sorry to sound sexist, just a generalization; not all men or women are the same). So if you wife has never been on a sailboat before and now you expect her to live at 20-30 degree heal, you might be calling your cruise short.

Which is better: high overall stability or high initial stability? That depends on you. If you reef early and often and know the techniques to keep you boat bottom down, high initial stability can be a lot more comfortable in most circumstances. This is one of the reasons that catamarans are so popular despite being able to carry less weight than monohulls.

Similar discussions can be had of rudder types. What is better a barn door, a skeg hung, a spade? Arguments can be made for all.

Personally, I would take a modern hull with a wing keel and a spade rudder any where if I was confident in the build quality and condition. Some will claim this opinion is suicide. My suggestion is to do some more reading on sailboat design and water sailing">blue water sailing, think about what you want to do, consider that even cruisers that circumnavigate spend 70% of their time at anchor and get out on as many different types of boats as you can.

Two aspects to your plan that aren't very clear from what you posted that should be cleared up before you go much further are related to budget and cruising ground. You have not said (unless I missed it) where you plan to cruise. Are you going around the world, to the Caribbean, Sea of Cortez? This will make a big difference in boat choice. Also, you stated a budget of $80K to buy the boat. I hope this means you have another $40-50K for upgrades, repairs and outfitting. A boat you buy for $80K will not be turnkey, ready to go. It will need work. How much depends on the lifestyle you are will to accept.

Good luck,

Jesse
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:01   #34
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I'm afraid this is the bit where everyone pushes the boat THEY bought. After all, they voted with their hard-earned cash, didn't they? OK, maybe someone else will push for some boat they saw at the dock, or saw anchored out, or read about on the internet.

But the truth is that selecting a boat is 70% emotional, 30% logical. Boats aren't simply practical, they're also a bit of art.

You'll have to look around and find what YOU want. You can ask others what they like, but they'll come up with practical reasons to justify what they like aesthetically. Don't let people here talk you into or out of any given boat.

My advice is to get out there and look at these boats on your list. You can't just read about them, go see them. There are lots of trade-offs, but it's got to be about YOUR preference, not some other guys on a cruisers forum.

BTW, any boat on your list will get the job done. So get the one that makes your heart thump a little faster than the others.
Well said, great advice. I have been in every boat on my list and some that are not there. I can say, some got me going while others left me feeling well, unclean. lol

Thanks,

Mark
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:13   #35
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Mark,
Combining your "full-keel" and "heavy displacement" requirements, and your requirements of good living space below decks, makes for an almost impossible solution....and now adding in your new requirement of a budget of < $80,000...no question that anything with a "Hinckley" name is out....but I DO have a possible perfect boat for you...
It's called an "Unobtainia 40.9", and is only sold one day each year (this coming Saturday, April 1st)....


Now that I'm fully awake and alert, and as I re-read your posting in the light-of-day, I'm thinking that you can't actually be serious about this, as even basic "research" and some casual "conversations" would have certainly educated you to the facts that I and others have laid out here for you...prior to your coming here!!
So, now I'm thinking that you may be a rather well-spoken humorist that is just pulling all of our legs....doing a big April Fool's joke on us all???

And, yeah....you did fool me, late last night...
So, kudos to 'ya!




And, letsgetsailing.....this is why I questioned right up front WHY Mark was asking others to post their choice of boat....as this just starts a thread of "mine is best" comments...But, at least I gave two solid recommendations of boats that I don't own (but have sailed on)....the Hinckley Bermuda 40 and the Tayana 37...(and the Tayana 37 even fits his newly-disclosed budget!)





Good luck and fair winds...


John
s/v Annie Laurie
Oh my John, sounds like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. In my experience, which I admit is lacking, there are lots of folks that I met, talked to and visited aboard there choice in sail that feel I'm not just dreaming. They own boats like Westsail 42's and Hans Christian 38T's. I'm here to validate what I think I've learned, see what a more objective audience might have to say and check my assumptions, not try to fool anyone. You may consider 80K disposable income, I on the other hand would rather engage in research, which I think this exercise qualifies as, before I drop 80K on anything. Just saying!
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:29   #36
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I am not a fan of spade hung rudders. I think some protection is necessary, lots of crap to be found in the ocean. In my 30 years at sea I've seen first hand significant damage done to unprotected rudders from the mysterious something we hit somewhere. I was glad in a couple of those cases to have two mounted. I get the fact that any floating object, sailboats included, can cross an ocean, I guess my question now becomes, which ones would experienced sailors pick to do it in if they had to do it alone.
Not to be a jerk but prove it. Most cases of spade rudder failure are due to poor maintenance not hitting stuff. This is one of those things where people just blindly accept it as fact without researching it.

Think about this one factor, insurance. If spade rudders where so much more prone to failure than other rudder types, wouldn't it cost more to insure a spade rudder boat than a skeg hung rudder boat? It doesn't.

All rudders can fail. All rudders have their own flaws and merits. Personally, you would never catch me sailing great distances in a barn door style rudder boat. But I'll take a spade rudder around the world.

Sorry, rant over.

Jesse
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:29   #37
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Mark, I have no where near the expertise of many (most?) on CF, including some that have already posted here. However, I do own a "full-keel, heavy displacement" boat that is just shy of your required LOA. And I share your perspective on the value of these designs. So in that light let me say (as others have), that your specs or needs may be a bit contradictory.

Firstly, "traditional" (whatever that means) full-keel, heavy displacement boats tend to have longer overhangs and narrower beams. This means their LWL, and general crew space, is going to be a lot smaller that their LOA would suggest. Our boat has a LOA of 36.75' and a LWL of 32', with a beam of 12'. I personally love our living space for two people, but many might find it compact. It is certainly a lot smaller than newer boats with similar LOA.

All this is to say if you require spacious accommodation in a smallish LOA, then you should probably look to newer designs. And although it pains me to say, there is nothing wrong with the newer designs. Clearly most are as solid and safe as any other good quality "traditional" boat, new or old. If living space is what you want at an inexpensive price, there's no question; look at a newer Bena/Jeanna/Hunta/etca (they all look the same to me ).

The best thing you can do is actually get on as many boats as you can. Sail as many as you can. If cruising is your plan, then try and spend real time on some. Only then can you really learn what you need (vs what you think you want). And when you're ready, find yourself a good Rafiki-37. They are the best choice .
I hear you...I need to broaden my search criterion a little. Not that I will exclude the class of full keel boats that i have researched and been in, but to see just how the newer, modern hulls meet my expectations. I have learned a great deal in the past 24 hours. Many people like yourself have given good advice, and helped me understand that I may not find what I'm looking for where I've been looking. All the responses, well almost all, will help me nail down what truly is important to me and hopefully why it's important.

Thanks,
Mark

P.S....I was looking at a Rafiki just last night. Very nice boat, classic looking.
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:38   #38
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I think we are misunderstanding each other...sorry about that...
Also, please take note of my "smiley faces", and see that I'm not discounting your desires...


I'm not saying that I think your desires are wrong...but just that I don't think it's realistic to try to find BOTH adequate "below decks living space" in a 39' - 42' boat, AND have this boat be a traditional "full-keel" / "heavy displacement" boat....
It is in these points that I think you may be "dreaming"...


And, forgive me as I NEVER intended to imply that $80,000 wasn't a sizable sum of money, as in my world it is VERY sizable...
Rather, I was just commenting that my earlier recommend of the Hinckley Bermuda 40 was well beyond that budget....and never wished to imply anything other than that!!
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Originally Posted by Mpricer View Post
In my experience, which I admit is lacking, there are lots of folks that I met, talked to and visited aboard there choice in sail that feel I'm not just dreaming. They own boats like Westsail 42's and Hans Christian 38T's. I'm here to validate what I think I've learned, see what a more objective audience might have to say and check my assumptions, not try to fool anyone. You may consider 80K disposable income, I on the other hand would rather engage in research, which I think this exercise qualifies as, before I drop 80K on anything. Just saying!
Nothing wrong with Westsails, etc. they'll sail you around quite well, and give you many years of service....BUT...
But, you've apparently been on-board them and/or boats like them, and spoken to owners, etc....and are still looking for one "like them" but with adequate "below decks living space"???
And what I (and others) are trying to impart to you is:
There just aren't many (any?) boats that fit BOTH of your desires....

You say you're here to "validate" what you think you learned, but are ignoring what many are trying to provide you with in their answers...
That being, that you almost can't get BOTH of your desires in one boat...
(hence my tongue-in-cheek reference to the "Unobtainia 40.9", meaning it is unobtainable!!)



So, just to be clear and to sum up....
a) There is NOTHING wrong with your desire for a "full-keel", "hevy displacement" boat....
b) There is NOTHING wrong with your desire for adequate "below decks living space"....
c) There is NOTHING wrong with a boat budget of $80,000....you can find some very nice boats for that amount, that will sail you around safely for many years...
d) There is NOTHING wrong with trying to learn and asking questions (actually the smartest people I've ever met are the ones that ask a lot of questions!!)
e) And specifically Westsails, etc. there is NOTHING wrong with them...

BUT...
But, in my opinion, and the opinion of a vast majority of sailors/cruisers, you are not going to find "a" and "b" in the same boat (or at least you will need to compromise what you consider to be 'adequate" and what is traditional "full-keel" and "heavy displacement"...)



I'm sorry if my humor (and bluntness) didn't mesh well...
But, I hope I clarified things for 'ya here a bit better now...

{BTW, this thread is starting to seem like one of those "what is a 'bluewater boat'" threads.....please don't let it get there... }



Fair winds

John
s/v Annie Laurie



P.S. I'm still not convinced that you're not pulling an elaborate April Fool's Day joke on us all.....but in any case, have a nice day...
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:55   #39
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Not to be a jerk but prove it. Most cases of spade rudder failure are due to poor maintenance not hitting stuff. This is one of those things where people just blindly accept it as fact without researching it.

Think about this one factor, insurance. If spade rudders where so much more prone to failure than other rudder types, wouldn't it cost more to insure a spade rudder boat than a skeg hung rudder boat? It doesn't.

All rudders can fail. All rudders have their own flaws and merits. Personally, you would never catch me sailing great distances in a barn door style rudder boat. But I'll take a spade rudder around the world.

Sorry, rant over.

Jesse
Struck a chord did I. Sorry, not my intention! I know that my 30 years at sea in the Navy on Cans and such aren't sailboats. In two different cases we lost what was essentially a spade mounted rudder, not to mention two blades off our screw from backing into a small channel buoy. The other incident we never found what we hit, but we hit something just below the water while traveling at about 5 knots. Took the left rudder off right at the post. Had either of those two ships had caged rudders or some other protection well, it's academic I guess.
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Old 25-03-2014, 09:59   #40
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

True full keel cruisers , especially in your size range are few and far between anymore. It sounds like you would do well with more of a long fin and heavy skeg type boat. I agree with your assessment of short waterlines, avoid those... or choose your boat by waterline rather than overall length! Why not a Passport, Valiant or something along those lines? With a boat like a Passport it will sail circles around the Hans Christian and have an interior that's every bit as nice. Maybe Cape Dory made a 45 footer with a short full keel? Or a Baba 40/Tashiba 40.
Stick to your guns, For get those light spade rudder boats... spades do fail all the time. I personally know of several. I'm not saying no one should have a spade, but they are not what some people want either.
As far as I can tell ... all your requirements are met by a Baba/Panda/Tashiba 40. cost is the question....
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Old 25-03-2014, 10:07   #41
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I started out with a Catalina 27, then a Catalina 30, now a CT41 ketch. With each increase in size, I actually stored less stuff on the boat. Also, what I kept on board shifted from household goods and food to spare parts.

You need so much less than you think. Start with nothing, then add only what you need, when you need it. I started with the Catalina 27 and an empty toolbox.
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Old 25-03-2014, 10:08   #42
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
I think we are misunderstanding each other...sorry about that...
Also, please take note of my "smiley faces", and see that I'm not discounting your desires...


I'm not saying that I think your desires are wrong...but just that I don't think it's realistic to try to find BOTH adequate "below decks living space" in a 39' - 42' boat, AND have this boat be a traditional "full-keel" / "heavy displacement" boat....
It is in these points that I think you may be "dreaming"...


And, forgive me as I NEVER intended to imply that $80,000 wasn't a sizable sum of money, as in my world it is VERY sizable...
Rather, I was just commenting that my earlier recommend of the Hinckley Bermuda 40 was well beyond that budget....and never wished to imply anything other than that!! Nothing wrong with Westsails, etc. they'll sail you around quite well, and give you many years of service....BUT...
But, you've apparently been on-board them and/or boats like them, and spoken to owners, etc....and are still looking for one "like them" but with adequate "below decks living space"???
And what I (and others) are trying to impart to you is:
There just aren't many (any?) boats that fit BOTH of your desires....

You say you're here to "validate" what you think you learned, but are ignoring what many are trying to provide you with in their answers...
That being, that you almost can't get BOTH of your desires in one boat...
(hence my tongue-in-cheek reference to the "Unobtainia 40.9", meaning it is unobtainable!!)



So, just to be clear and to sum up....
a) There is NOTHING wrong with your desire for a "full-keel", "hevy displacement" boat....
b) There is NOTHING wrong with your desire for adequate "below decks living space"....
c) There is NOTHING wrong with a boat budget of $80,000....you can find some very nice boats for that amount, that will sail you around safely for many years...
d) There is NOTHING wrong with trying to learn and asking questions (actually the smartest people I've ever met are the ones that ask a lot of questions!!)
e) And specifically Westsails, etc. there is NOTHING wrong with them...

BUT...
But, in my opinion, and the opinion of a vast majority of sailors/cruisers, you are not going to find "a" and "b" in the same boat (or at least you will need to compromise what you consider to be 'adequate" and what is traditional "full-keel" and "heavy displacement"...)



I'm sorry if my humor (and bluntness) didn't mesh well...
But, I hope I clarified things for 'ya here a bit better now...

{BTW, this thread is starting to seem like one of those "what is a 'bluewater boat'" threads.....please don't let it get there... }



Fair winds

John
s/v Annie Laurie



P.S. I'm still not convinced that you're not pulling an elaborate April Fool's Day joke on us all.....but in any case, have a nice day...
Thanks John,

I do realize after reading the many comments here, from those with the types of boats I've been talking about and from those in different boats, that my desires for space below and the size of boat on deck may in fact be mutually exclusive. But in fact, that was the point of this exercise, one of them anyway, April Fools being the other. lol

You do make very good points and I do hear you. I have decided to include some less traditional designs (modern) into may search and see where that leads me.

The time spent on this forum has been time well spent, and I appreciate everyone who has contributed. It is nice to see the passion people display over their boats and this lifestyle. Exhilarating really!
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Old 25-03-2014, 10:13   #43
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
True full keel cruisers , especially in your size range are few and far between anymore. It sounds like you would do well with more of a long fin and heavy skeg type boat. I agree with your assessment of short waterlines, avoid those... or choose your boat by waterline rather than overall length! Why not a Passport, Valiant or something along those lines? With a boat like a Passport it will sail circles around the Hans Christian and have an interior that's every bit as nice. Maybe Cape Dory made a 45 footer with a short full keel? Or a Baba 40/Tashiba 40.
Stick to your guns, For get those light spade rudder boats... spades do fail all the time. I personally know of several. As far as I can tell ... all your requirements are met by a Baba/Panda/Tashiba 40. cost is the question....
Cheechako,

Thanks, for the input....I recently became interested in sailing dories when I read Annie Hills book "Voyaging on a Small Income" Great book, lots of opinions that would not fly on this forum, well not without lots of rhetoric around them anyway!
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Old 25-03-2014, 10:43   #44
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I hear you...I need to broaden my search criterion a little. Not that I will exclude the class of full keel boats that i have researched and been in, but to see just how the newer, modern hulls meet my expectations. I have learned a great deal in the past 24 hours. Many people like yourself have given good advice, and helped me understand that I may not find what I'm looking for where I've been looking. All the responses, well almost all, will help me nail down what truly is important to me and hopefully why it's important.
It's a good group of people here on CF (well, most of us ). But as you already know, these kinds of questions tend to produce a lot of personal-biased perspectives. Nothing wrong with that. After all, you gotta love the boat you have. The worst thing you could do is buy a boat based on someone else's criteria.

The fact is, there are good quality boats to be had in nearly all design categories. Every boat is set of compromises. The best boat for you depends on what's important to you. This is why it's best to get as much actual experience as you can. Books are great, but they only go so far. The great thing is that there are a lot of good quality boats available in the used market right now. Your budget gives you lots of options. Take as much time as you can.

... And then go buy that Rafiki .
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Old 25-03-2014, 11:14   #45
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

The other subjective part of this conversation is, "what is adequate below decks living space." This is going to be vastly different from person to person, but I am getting the impression that adequate space for the OP needs to be quite voluminous.

My husband and I have spent about 5 years living aboard, first on a Newport 30, then a Bristol 24, then a Cabo Rico 38. To me, after living the majority of the time on the 24 and 30 footer, I felt like I could have held a barn dance on the 38 footer. But it's all a matter of perspective. I have gotten the impression that a full keeled, traditional 38 footer is falling short of the OP's need for space. To me that's hard to imagine.

I agree wholeheartedly with the previous poster who pointed out that this sort of question will mostly get you endorsements of each individual's favorite boat, because each individual's needs to are so, well.....individual. I would personally feel like I had more room than I knew what to do with on a full keel, traditional layout in the 36 foot range, and that would be more than enough boat to maintain and handle. Bigger would just be more work and expense with nothing additional that I actually need. But I gather from comments of the OP that this would seem like "living in a cave" to them, so of what value would MY opinion be in his search for HIS ideal boat?

Previous comments pointed out that getting all the OP's exact criteria met in one vessel within the stated budget might be difficult, so then it comes down to compromises, but which compromises? That would depend on the "stated use," about which we still don't have a lot of information. I think that making the decision of whether to compromise space or "ultimate offshore cruising ability" would depend on how much hard offshore use the boat was actually going to get. Is the plan to head out around the world, come what may? Or will they be mostly coastal cruising where you can pick your weather windows with more predictability? The Cape, the Caribbean islands or the Pacific trades? And despite all the arguments offered about the safety of modern lighter displacement hull designs, most often I think that enjoyment of the cruise is more closely related to how safe you FEEL, which may or may not have any true relationship to how safe you actually are. Even though many many people are out there cruising safely and happily in those modern hulls, if it caused the OP and his wife any feelings of insecurity it would dampen their enjoyment of the cruise whether or not those feelings had any basis in reality.

A sound, properly maintained and outfitted, well-built boat by a reputable designer, will outlast the captain and crew in most circumstances, but I too would opt for the heavily built offshore cruiser if I were heading off into situations where I would be at sea for long periods of time, cruising routes where variable/unpredictable weather conditions are to be expected, or heading into waterways known to be more treacherous. I would opt, however, for the space and livability if I were choosing coastal cruising and Caribbean island hopping. These are questions that haven't really been answered.

For us basic essentials means a comfortable berth, an adequate galley, a head with shower, enough room in the cockpit for a few guests and adequate storage for the needed gear and supplies. (Needed gear and supplies, once again, subject to intended use. Do I need to be able to store enough food and gear for months, or will I be within reach of a market every couple of days??) After that, in a world where I couldn't have it all, I would focus the bang for my buck depending on where I was headed and what my intended cruising lifestyle was going to be, with safety considerations first and everything else after that negotiable.
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