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Old 26-04-2014, 05:26   #361
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
... It can be done without significant affect to speed ability but usually it's not..
I know you have difficulties to comprehend this but I can try to help if you want to.
Chears Teddy
Yes, very clear

Of course I am generalizing and as you say, "usually is not"

For what I read from you I doubt very much I have anything to learn with you
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Old 26-04-2014, 05:37   #362
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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They're not talking about volume but about about carrying capacity. A modern 40 footer has a lot more volume, which is a plus. But you can't necessarily put more stuff on it (not without it starting to lose many of its advantages anyway) than on a traditional boat of the same displacement.

At least, that's the way I read it.
You are right in what concerns limiting the possibility of reaching planning speeds but even out of planning a lighter bigger boat (with the same displacement) fully loaded (MAX load) will be much faster simply because its hull speed is much bigger and he can reach it much more easily.
Have an example of two boats withe about the same weight, the Westsail 32 and a Pogo 50. The Westsail hull speed will be 7.0K the Pogo 50 hull speed will be 9.4K.

(Kts = 1.34 * LWL^½)

Anyway almost all performance cruisers are designed not to plane but to reach quickly and with weak winds (10K) hull speed and go just a little bit over it. For more than that you need a crew and big winds. There are some designed to do it at 14k or so but those are not the rule and to do that they have to be light otherwise they will need stronger winds.
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Old 26-04-2014, 07:22   #363
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Dang, Vic, I'm sorry to have missed you guys. We stuffed the Solent furler and the sail a few days ago, and are hung up trying to source parts, then to get a new sail made. Gawd knows how long all that will take...

Must have been due to our fin keel and light displacement or some such bugaboo. I hate it when that happens!

Good sailing, and get out of Coffs ASAP! Bad anchorage, bad marina, good location. Spend some time up the Clarence if you can... one of our favorite places.

Cheers for now,

Jim
Jim, sorry about your sail woes. And a great pity we couldn't catch up this time, but we'll be flying back for visits more frequently so we'll have to make a plan.

Where do you anchor with that keel of yours on the Clarence? Iluka or Yamba?

Vic
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Old 26-04-2014, 08:07   #364
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Pollux, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be on SailNet arguing with Bob Perry about naval architecture?


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Old 26-04-2014, 11:29   #365
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Pollux, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be on SailNet arguing with Bob Perry about naval architecture?
..
and what do you have with the Forum where I prefer to post? This is a nice one, bigger then Sailnet and with a less conservative outlook on boats. Lots of interesting people here. In what regards Fin keel boats and Long keel boats actually I have nothing to argue with Bob: We have the same opinion, as it should be expected about such a consensual subject.
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Old 26-04-2014, 11:46   #366
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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and what do you have with the Forum where I prefer to post? This is a nice one, bigger then Sailnet and with a less conservative outlook on boats. Lots of interesting people here. In what regards Fin keel boats and Long keel boats actually I have nothing to argue with Bob: We have the same opinion, as it should be expected about such a consensual subject.
I get your opinion, Polux, but I wonder if it couldn't be consider thread-jacking to a certain degree to turn every single thread into an attempt to sell your opinion on fin keels. When a person asks for recommendations for a nice full-keel cruiser, because that's his preference, and that's what he wants to learn about, why must the thread be turned into an engineering treatise on the properties of fin keels and planing hulls? That's not what he asked about? It's also probably not what the majority of people following the thread are interested in. Why not start a thread called "let's talk about light displacement modern fin keels racing hulls?" Then those people who aren't interested in wading through page after page of figures and formulas about a hull type they couldn't care less about could just avoid the thread and quit wasting their time.

Or maybe I am the only one who keeps following this thread hoping that there will be posts that actually offer information related to the original question. It appears the OP stopped looking at it, or at least responding to it, a long time ago.
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Old 26-04-2014, 12:13   #367
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Those fast planing fin keel boats are all fine and dandy, but I will take my 24 ton heavy FULL keel boat through heavy weather and leave all the fancy boats floundering around trying to keep from breaking into pieces. Then i will have to come along and rescue you. hahaha.

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Old 26-04-2014, 12:18   #368
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Speed= distance over elapsed time (real time).

And again that story with Dorade

No you are wrong, it has nothing to do with one design. Boats like Dorade and Westsail, or any slow old boat for the matter, will continue to win races when they continue to be raced in IMAGINARY time and not in REAL, time. The imaginary time that is called corrected time it is a particularity you can find only in sail racing.

On that imaginary reality all boats can be imaginary fast on the heads of some, it only depends how much they are compensated for its real slowness. If that ridiculous system was used on car race a F1 could be "faster" than a Fiat 500

In reality the 52ft Dorade was slower by almost half a day than a very common and inexpensive performance cruiser, a Beneteau First 40, a boat that contrary to the Dorade can be cruised solo sailed and even in crewed races needs a much smaller crew.
The actual average speed would be the actual distance sailed over elapsed time. Funny how you ignore this....or maybe you hadn't actually thought about it?

Why do you come on these full keel threads and try to change the topic? As others have mentioned it might be wiser to start your own thread - something like "interesting sailboats" But, someone might disagree with you on what an interesting sailboat is, try not to take it so personally.

On the elapsed versus corrected time argument, I'm about 99.99% sure that everyone understands the difference. Are you being obtuse?
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Old 26-04-2014, 12:27   #369
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I get your opinion, Polux, but I wonder if it couldn't be consider thread-jacking to a certain degree to turn every single thread into an attempt to sell your opinion on fin keels. When a person asks for recommendations for a nice full-keel cruiser, because that's his preference, and that's what he wants to learn about, why must the thread be turned into an engineering treatise on the properties of fin keels and planing hulls? That's not what he asked about? It's also probably not what the majority of people following the thread are interested in. Why not start a thread called "let's talk about light displacement modern fin keels racing hulls?" Then those people who aren't interested in wading through page after page of figures and formulas about a hull type they couldn't care less about could just avoid the thread and quit wasting their time.

Or maybe I am the only one who keeps following this thread hoping that there will be posts that actually offer information related to the original question. It appears the OP stopped looking at it, or at least responding to it, a long time ago.
You may be right but if you look at my posts you will see that except on one that I suggest that he would be looking for a type of boat (Full keel or fin keel alike), instead of a full keel boat only (using a post from other sailor expressing that opinion) every post I made was a reply to somebody that was giving information that I did not considered accurate, regarding speed of full keel boats or loading ability.

I believe the original poster was not particularly informed and was looking for information. I believe he wants a medium displacement cruiser easy to sail, forgiving and adapted to voyaging. I hope that some of the information that I have provided may be of some use to him or others.

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Okay here we go, be gentle folks I'm new at all this and I know that I don't know and that's why I'm here!

... We are not interested in sitting next to the dock and just existing on a sailboat, we want to be able to travel and take our home with us. ..

That brings me to why I'm here writing this post. For several months now I have been on a preliminary search for our new floating oasis. I have determined through both research and conversation that the best type of sailboat for us would be a full keeled, heavy displacement boat in the 39 to 42 foot range.

Here's the rub, in my scouring of the internet local marinas, and some not so local, I continue to run into the proverbial, this boat is as good as a full keel boat without the downsides etc, or the you don't really need a full keel when a fin will do just as well. ...

... My basic requirements as stated above are well founded in our intended use of the boat, and I welcome opinions both in favor of my choice and those that may differ. I only ask that if you differ, please be very specific as to why you do so.......

Mark
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Old 26-04-2014, 12:36   #370
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

In quoting the original OP you have exactly confirmed my point by the text you highlighted where he said "Here's the rub, in my scouring of the internet local marinas, and some not so local, I continue to run into the proverbial, this boat is as good as a full keel boat without the downsides etc, or the you don't really need a full keel when a fin will do just as well. ..." He was basically saying that he was tired of asking around and having people tell him that a fin keel is as good as a full keel. That's not what he wanted to hear. He wanted information on full keel boats, period.

Please understand I am not in any way being critical of fin keel boats. I currently own a fin keel myself, and it is not my first, although it is not by any means a boat that I would ever consider taking offshore. I am just saying that this seems to be a trend with some subjects where an OP is looking for specific information and within a page or so the thread changes to an attempt to convince him/her that they are WRONG for asking the question in the first place. Some people prefer full keels, period. So if that's what they want to know about, why waste how many pages of dialogue trying to tell them they want your particular brand of fin keel instead?
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Old 26-04-2014, 12:47   #371
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Here's the reality once you start spending more time in anchorages than cruising chat rooms. There is every type of boat in the anchorage that all the experts say couldn't/shouldn't be there. And the strange thing when you talk to their crew...they are having a blast.

The best boat to go cruising on and live aboard is the one you can find, afford and convince your wife to go! Everything else is just Chevy vs Ford stuff for those who care about those types of things. Sure my 55K pound hulk won't bounce around as much as a 14K pound Hunter...but we are both anchored in the same fabulous anchorage enjoying the same sunset and crystal blue waters.
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Old 26-04-2014, 12:51   #372
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pirate Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Here's the reality once you start spending more time in anchorages than cruising chat rooms. There is every type of boat in the anchorage that all the experts say couldn't/shouldn't be there. And the strange thing when you talk to their crew...they are having a blast.

The best boat to go cruising on and live aboard is the one you can find, afford and convince your wife to go! Everything else is just Chevy vs Ford stuff for those who care about those types of things. Sure my 55K pound hulk won't bounce around as much as a 14K pound Hunter...but we are both anchored in the same fabulous anchorage enjoying the same sunset and crystal blue waters.
+A1..
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Old 26-04-2014, 13:07   #373
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Exactly, Third Day. That's why I don't understand why so much type is wasted trying to convince anyone that they can't/shouldn't do it on a particular boat, if that is their choice, what they can afford, what they find beautiful, and what they feel comfortable on. It seems the more intelligent use of the thread would be to, first of all, answer the question asked, and then discuss how to make the most of the particular boat they either have or are planning to buy.

There is a very emotional component to boat ownership also. The lines of a boat that one finds beautiful is almost akin to being physically attracted to a partner. Some of them just do it for you, and others don't. Some people think certain boats look like floating refrigerators, some people find them beautiful. Why try to convince anyone that their feelings are invalid?

We had a 28' Cape Dory a few years back. It was our dream cruising boat. Our first boat back in 1982 was a Cape Dory Typhoon. When we first laid eyes on the Cape Dory line we thought they were the most beautiful boats we had ever seen and we knew that someday we would want one for our cruising boat. There are other boats that we find just as beautiful, but our feelings about the Cape Dorys has never changed.

Unfortunately we sold it because I had a health issue that we thought was going to make it impossible for me to continue to sail. Fortunately for me, over the past few years the disease has not taken the expected course and for the majority of the time I am fine and am able to do all the outdoor activities that I love. But at the time we were assuming the worst and we had sold our beloved Cape Dory. So, now we have picked up this little Catalina as a sort of inexpensive "trial boat" to test the waters and make sure things remain okay with me. If and when we determine for certain that I can continue to sail safely we will be looking for another Cape Dory 28-31 or something very similar. When that time comes, based on 33 years of sailing experience on at least a dozen boats of varying designs, we will not be looking for anyone to convince us that this fin keel or that will be better for us. Been there, done that, and we know what we want. It won't matter how many formulas or figures you can put up, we like what we like based on what we have experienced and what looks beautiful to us.

I'm just saying......
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Old 26-04-2014, 13:27   #374
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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..[/B] ..." He was basically saying that he was tired of asking around and having people tell him that a fin keel is as good as a full keel. That's not what he wanted to hear. He wanted information on full keel boats, period.
I think you are forgetting this:

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.. My basic requirements as stated above are well founded in our intended use of the boat, and I welcome opinions both in favor of my choice and those that may differ. I only ask that if you differ, please be very specific as to why you do so......
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Exactly, Third Day. That's why I don't understand why so much type is wasted trying to convince anyone that they can't/shouldn't do it on a particular boat, if that is their choice, what they can afford, what they find beautiful, and what they feel comfortable on. It seems the more intelligent use of the thread would be to, first of all, answer the question asked, and then discuss how to make the most of the particular boat they either have or are planning to buy.
I am not trying to convince anybody about something much less my own particular kind of taste in what regards cruising boats. Quite the contrary I provide information that can lead to a more accurate choice. I was not being exclusive but inclusive: I think that for the type of boat he wants, being full keel or fin keel matters very little and that he should concentrate in a type of hull and boat more than on a type of keel.
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Old 26-04-2014, 13:51   #375
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Compromise, its a compromise, coming from both worlds, fin and modified full keel , i will say both have pros and cons unless you want to spend big $$$ in a top quality yachtbuilder , Oyster, swan, or many others with a good reputation, what i miss from the old days sailing my c&c 40 its the ability to dock the boat in tight spaces around some marinas or how nice is to grab the Wheel and feel the boat around the waves, or the upwind pointing ability, what i dont miss its the painfull fear to hit a rock or a reef sailing around the tricky waters , the maintenance, or the bilge wáter few inches under my feets.

Now i own a modify full cutaway keel and i think it have something from both worlds, its not a full keel is not a fin keel, for me its peace of mind thinking in a serious collision or grounding, i got a real bilge sump box and no maintenance ever.

Now for the Op question the answer its yes, liveaboard or cruising around the world a full , fin or modify keel its the answer, it all depend in your priorities and how much you want to trade from one design v the other...
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