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Old 25-04-2014, 19:15   #346
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Have I gone totally Mad and eaten a Colorado Brownie or are people actually arguing about "Racing" in a thread titled "A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard". Sorry but I have to laugh out loud...

What parts of "Full Keel Boat" and "Cruiser worthy of living aboard" have some of you guys missed here?
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Old 25-04-2014, 19:24   #347
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Notice we haven't heard from the OP in a long time. Hopefully he found a suitable old full keel cruiser and has gone cruising.
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Old 25-04-2014, 19:25   #348
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Good point Rich, funny how these threads always seem to degenerate into a "my boat is better than yours because its waaaay faster" hahaha
These older boats are not race boats but of course people sometimes race them. And if they are well sailed they can win. To me its the best of both worlds, a comfortable seaworthy boat pleasing to the eye that can win races. Whats not to like? Yes a Pogo whatever might be a bit faster, but as others have pointed out it looks like a fridge with a mast (just an opinion mind you)
Cue outrage from Paulo that anyone could even consider that an old design might be a better boat. I think it must be his anti American agenda coming out again as it did on Sailnet.
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Old 26-04-2014, 01:16   #349
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Yes a Pogo whatever might be a bit faster, but as others have pointed out it looks like a fridge with a mast (just an opinion mind you)
That's indeed just an opinion. I find a Pogo a far better looking boat then a Westsail. But I wouldn't buy a Pogo to go cruising. I'd buy an RM.

On morganscloud.com they're currently having a brainstorm on an ideal blue water cruiser. And interesting post is this one; look:Adventure 40, It’s About Displacement and Righting Moment

Made me retying the way we think about the "size" of a boat. A Westsail 32 is actually as much boat as a modern 40 footer. But a modern 40 footer will sail a lot better.
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Old 26-04-2014, 01:43   #350
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Made me retying the way we think about the "size" of a boat. A Westsail 32 is actually as much boat as a modern 40 footer. But a modern 40 footer will sail a lot better.
That's a curious statement:" A Westsail 32 is actually as much boat as a modern 40 footer."

The only way I can see that being true is by gross weight. Is that what you meant?

The mod 40 footer will certainly be faster on all points of sail, and especially in light air. It will have far more usable room below, a more comfortable cockpit and probably be a bit stiffer.

It will have a different motion at sea, one that some like better, some not so much. It will pound going to windward in steep seas, but it will be going faster than the W-32 while it is pounding. It's interior will be flimsy by comparison, and there may not be as much dedicated stowage volume. It's bilge will be far smaller in volume, but have less likelihood of having much water in it during normal operations.

INteresting differences, but I still don't understand your statement!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 26-04-2014, 03:16   #351
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Hi Jim,
Looks like we've missed you this time. We've sailed our comfortable, homely, full keel liveaboard brick north and we're rocking away in Coffs Harbour.

Cheers,
Vic
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Old 26-04-2014, 03:33   #352
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Hi Jim,
Looks like we've missed you this time. We've sailed our comfortable, homely, full keel liveaboard brick north and we're rocking away in Coffs Harbour.

Cheers,
Vic
Dang, Vic, I'm sorry to have missed you guys. We stuffed the Solent furler and the sail a few days ago, and are hung up trying to source parts, then to get a new sail made. Gawd knows how long all that will take...

Must have been due to our fin keel and light displacement or some such bugaboo. I hate it when that happens!

Good sailing, and get out of Coffs ASAP! Bad anchorage, bad marina, good location. Spend some time up the Clarence if you can... one of our favorite places.

Cheers for now,

Jim
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Old 26-04-2014, 03:44   #353
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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That's a curious statement:" A Westsail 32 is actually as much boat as a modern 40 footer."

The only way I can see that being true is by gross weight. Is that what you meant?
I am indeed referring to displacement.

To quote from morganscloud.com
(The Adventure 40 is the 40 foot cruising yacht they're brainstorming about on that site. Not built yet. But if it gets build I might seriously consider buying one)
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For some reason the first metric that we always use when describing a boat and comparing it to others is length overall. But that is simply wrong. The right number to use is displacement, being the weight of the water that a boat displaces. Or to simplify further, the size of the hole in the water that the boat makes.

If we think for a moment, this truth becomes obvious. If two boats weigh about the same, like the Adventure 40 and Westsail 32, the volume of the hole in the water they make will be about the same too, and therefore they will be capable of holding about the same amount of gear and people. Further, it will take about the same amount of material to line that hole in the water (the hull) and about the same amount of furniture and gear to fill it. And theretofore these two boats are about the same size, and will, assuming the same construction techniques, cost about the same to build.
This brings me back to my original remark about the Westsail's bowsprit. Why not just make the boat longer?
If you stay with the same displacement and sail area, but make the hull longer you'll get a better DLR. You won't need a bigger rig, or end up with a more expensive hull. As long as you don't go to extremes this won't have to go at the expense of sea kindliness .

Compare for example the Westsail 32 with a Valiant 37. Same displacement, same sail area. Probably the same amount of storage on board, and similar costs to build and maintain. But the Valiant 37 has 4 foot more waterline.
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Old 26-04-2014, 03:55   #354
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

G'Day KVB,

I must say that Morgancloud's statement sounds pretty wrong to me!

Vessels of equal displacement do make the same size hole in the water, just as he says. But to then say the the volume of the boat (including the above the waterline volume) is the same is patently wrong. The modern 40 footer has more beam, more LOD, more LWL, and more freeboard. How can it not have considerably more internal volume? The bilge volume will be essentially the same (same hole in the water), but the mod 40 will be larger in all other dimensions (including price!!).

A short visit on a W-32 and most any newish 40 foot production boat will demonstrate this fact to the most oblivious observer. And I mean this as a positive reflection on the modern boat rather than a negative one on the W-32... just a fact of life!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 26-04-2014, 04:09   #355
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I must say that Morgancloud's statement sounds pretty wrong to me!

Vessels of equal displacement do make the same size hole in the water, just as he says. But to then say the the volume of the boat (including the above the waterline volume) is the same is patently wrong. The modern 40 footer has more beam, more LOD, more LWL, and more freeboard. How can it not have considerably more internal volume?
They're not talking about volume but about about carrying capacity. A modern 40 footer has a lot more volume, which is a plus. But you can't necessarily put more stuff on it (not without it starting to lose many of its advantages anyway) than on a traditional boat of the same displacement.

At least, that's the way I read it.
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Old 26-04-2014, 04:20   #356
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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They're not talking about volume but about about carrying capacity. A modern 40 footer has a lot more volume, which is a plus. But you can't necessarily put more stuff on it (not without it starting to lose many of its advantages anyway) than on a traditional boat of the same displacement.

At least, that's the way I read it.
Could be that is what they meant, but seems like he said that it took the same amount of furniture and hull material, etc, to fit it out, so I dunno.

Doesn't really matter, 'cause in general I agree with their premise (Do I really understand that premise??). Anyhow, nice chatting with you, and I sympathize with your desire to own something other than the AWBs of the world.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 26-04-2014, 04:20   #357
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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The Pac cup is also a Transpac. By the way, last years Transpac was won by Dorade, a wooden boat built in 1929. As long as there are races that are not one design any boat can win. I bet the ride on Dorade or Saraband was 20 times more comfortable that being in a refrigerator with a mast. That is a matter of opinion of course.
How did you figure the average speed? From the rumbline course? Surely you are not thinking that was the actual average speed?
Speed= distance over elapsed time (real time).

And again that story with Dorade

No you are wrong, it has nothing to do with one design. Boats like Dorade and Westsail, or any slow old boat for the matter, will continue to win races when they continue to be raced in IMAGINARY time and not in REAL, time. The imaginary time that is called corrected time it is a particularity you can find only in sail racing.

On that imaginary reality all boats can be imaginary fast on the heads of some, it only depends how much they are compensated for its real slowness. If that ridiculous system was used on car race a F1 could be "faster" than a Fiat 500

In reality the 52ft Dorade was slower by almost half a day than a very common and inexpensive performance cruiser, a Beneteau First 40, a boat that contrary to the Dorade can be cruised solo sailed and even in crewed races needs a much smaller crew.
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Old 26-04-2014, 04:30   #358
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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....

I must say that Morgancloud's statement sounds pretty wrong to me!

Vessels of equal displacement do make the same size hole in the water, just as he says. But to then say the the volume of the boat (including the above the waterline volume) is the same is patently wrong. The modern 40 footer has more beam, more LOD, more LWL, and more freeboard. How can it not have considerably more internal volume? The bilge volume will be essentially the same (same hole in the water), but the mod 40 will be larger in all other dimensions (including price!!).

..
I agree. He is also wrong regarding the load ability. A modern boat with the same weight and a much bigger foot print will be able to carry more load not less. If the foot print is double in area it will only sink half the inches for the same load.
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Old 26-04-2014, 05:12   #359
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I agree. He is also wrong regarding the load ability. A modern boat with the same weight and a much bigger foot print will be able to carry more load not less. If the foot print is double in area it will only sink half the inches for the same load.
Again, your reasoning is faulty. Nothing to do with modern or old nor foot print either. It depends how the immersed hull form ie Cp is changing with loading. It can be done without significant affect to speed ability but usually it's not..
I know you have difficulties to comprehend this but I can try to help if you want to.
Chears Teddy
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Old 26-04-2014, 05:16   #360
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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.. and I sympathize with your desire to own something other than the AWBs of the world.

If I want to sail an AWB I can just rent one. I don't need to own one. I also don't feel the need to own an AWB from the 60ies or 70ies. I'm looking for something that appeals to my love of beautifully crafted machinery. Modern machinery that is :-)
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