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Old 21-04-2014, 08:16   #286
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pirate Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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And if you're going the coconut route but head south to get around Cape of Good Hope?
No sweat.. a lady did it in the 70's in a 30ft plywood Bobcat.. with her hubby and toddlers along for the ride... oh no.. my mistake she did the 'Horn'..
Much ado about nothing..
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Old 21-04-2014, 09:10   #287
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

So....Here is a full keel heavy displacement antique technology Sailing cargo ship performance for you.

Built in 1954 the Lightning 226'44'26' [loa 243'] and tonnage: 2084 tons

1854 March 1
On the this day the Lightning sailed 436 miles, which is the longest day's run recorded by a sailing ship.
March 1. — Wind S., strong gales; bore away for the North Channel, carried away the foretopsail and lost jib; hove the log several times, and found the ship going through the water at the rate of 18 to 18 knots per hour; lee rail under water, and the rigging slack; saw the Irish land at 9:30 p.m. Distance run in the twenty-four hours, 436 miles.
From the Abstract log.

Her run from the Mersey to the Equator occupied 25 days, and from the parallel of the Cape to the Port Phillip Heads 30 days; indeed, such was the nature of the winds, that the topgallantsails never had occasion to be furled during the entire passage, neither was there occasion to reef the topsails. With the exception of five days, when the ship logged 332, 348, 300, 311, and 329 knots respectively per day, no extra-ordinary distances were logged.
On the 13th and 14th, strong and south-west winds were experienced, and she ran 351 and 354 miles per day respectively.

Now before I get scolded, I understand the length to width ratio, and Canvas area to wetted surface (Drag) coefficient. Buy really? we have a hard time beating these age old ships with way to high center of gravity, rigging that was 30% of the entire ship weight, keels that were not only full length of the entire ship, but internally ballasted, (Usually using mostly the cargo for ballast) oh yeah, they were sailing at these speeds with a FULL weight of cargo on-board, down wind.

Humm, I often wonder if we built a modern clipper ship out of aluminum hull, carbon fiber masts, and to be fair with performance cruising yachts, instead of using cargo for ballast, we put a external lead keel and latest sail and rigging technology, could we see speeds double?
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Old 21-04-2014, 18:20   #288
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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So....Here is a full keel heavy displacement antique technology Sailing cargo ship performance for you.

Built in 1954 the Lightning 226'44'26' [loa 243'] and tonnage: 2084 tons

1854 March 1
On the this day the Lightning sailed 436 miles, which is the longest day's run recorded by a sailing ship.
Today a 60ft sailing boat with 9T and only one sailor aboard is able to do better than that, most of the time on auto pilot. Great performance for the epoch though.
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Old 21-04-2014, 18:35   #289
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Besides the original Freia "was planked in Douglas fir with glued spline, upon glued Queensland maple laminated frames and her deck was fiberglassed plywood..", not a steel boat and certainly lighter than one.



...
The fiber glass Freya was 26.000ibs or 11.6 tons.(could not find the weight of the original. Does anyone know?) In steel my boat is just under 12 tons and that includes 500liters of fuel and 500 liters of water. I also have radar and other extras like self steering to add plus i carry junk that a racing boat wouldn't. The problems with home built boats are this. If there were more home built glass boats we would be moaning about them. I have seen steel boats that were terrible and prof built steel boats that are no heavier then the glass counterparts. Beyond about 33 feet there is no reason why the weights should not be comparable for steel and glass.
My favorite boat in steel is an adams 40 with a long fin. It was home built by a steel engineer in Marybourgh queensland. It is the best built boat i have seen in any material in my life. He also kept to Joe Adams recommendations for steel thickness so did not over build it and destroy the sailing performance of those well designed boats.
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Old 21-04-2014, 18:54   #290
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I realise from my last post i am moving away from the topic. For a full keel boat there are plenty to choose from in any material. Some sail better then others and some have better accommodation etc I think you should not discount long fins in your search. There is plenty of information on loads of good long keel boats whose speed and accommodation wont disappoint. Look at John Kretschmer Sailing as he has a great list of pros and cons
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Old 21-04-2014, 19:17   #291
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I realise from my last post i am moving away from the topic. For a full keel boat there are plenty to choose from in any material. Some sail better then others and some have better accommodation etc I think you should not discount long fins in your search. There is plenty of information on loads of good long keel boats whose speed and accommodation wont disappoint. Look at John Kretschmer Sailing as he has a great list of pros and cons

John Kretschmer Sailing - Bluewater Boats
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Old 21-04-2014, 20:03   #292
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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The fiber glass Freya was 26.000ibs or 11.6 tons.(could not find the weight of the original. Does anyone know?) In steel my boat is just under 12 tons and that includes 500liters of fuel and 500 liters of water. I also have radar and other extras like self steering to add plus i carry junk that a racing boat wouldn't. The problems with home built boats are this. If there were more home built glass boats we would be moaning about them. I have seen steel boats that were terrible and prof built steel boats that are no heavier then the glass counterparts. Beyond about 33 feet there is no reason why the weights should not be comparable for steel and glass.
My favorite boat in steel is an adams 40 with a long fin. It was home built by a steel engineer in Marybourgh queensland. It is the best built boat i have seen in any material in my life. He also kept to Joe Adams recommendations for steel thickness so did not over build it and destroy the sailing performance of those well designed boats.
That is very good, I mean about 11T for a 39ft steel boat. But regarding fiberglass the weight will only be the same if the boat is built the old way. With modern techniques and epoxy resin is possible to lower the weight of a boat like that to 7/8T. Off course it would not make much sense given the hull design and the boat would not be much faster.
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Old 21-04-2014, 20:06   #293
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

My Freya is 24,000 lbs--10,000 of that is lead ballast.
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Old 21-04-2014, 20:29   #294
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Today a 60ft sailing boat with 9T and only one sailor aboard is able to do better than that, most of the time on auto pilot. Great performance for the epoch though.

True, but we have to build a race boat to beat it. My point is, the old clipper ships went that speed with full keel heavy displacement.
Sure we can beat it with racing technology but that's not really a fair comparison.
I don't see any full keel heavy cruisers today fully loaded with cargo doing 18 knots. just seams like we still have some things to learn from the past to help us in the future.
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Old 21-04-2014, 21:34   #295
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I don't see any full keel heavy cruisers today fully loaded with cargo doing 18 knots. just seams like we still have some things to learn from the past to help us in the future.
Looks to me like what can be learned from your example is that LOTS of waterline length and a big crew of professional sailors can go faster than much shorter boats with amateur crews.

Big deal.

But that was an epic voyage to be sure, and likely good for a lot of free rums for all on board!

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Old 21-04-2014, 22:38   #296
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

All this talk about speed, if there is one thing I have learnt from cruising is speed can not be relied upon. We don't work out distance and time on hull speed but 5 to 6 Knots. Just the other week at the club a not so young bloke chirped in with he was going to get his own boat and wanted one that could out run the storms, practically in unison the rest of us said that will never happen, the best boat is one that is strong probably heavy and not very fast but it will weather the storm. True modern race boats do not make good cruising boats.

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Old 22-04-2014, 03:04   #297
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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"........the best boat is one that is strong probably heavy and not very fast but it will weather the storm. True modern race boats do not make good cruising boats.

Well said.

What does it say when 20 kt winds keep the most modern race boats at the dock?

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?id=9163117

I think the OP is looking for a sea worthy craft with a rudder that won't fall off when flipper scratches his back on it.
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Old 22-04-2014, 05:22   #298
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Well said.

What does it say when 20 kt winds keep the most modern race boats at the dock?

San Francisco: America's Cup time trials cancelled because of strong winds | abc7news.com

I think the OP is looking for a sea worthy craft with a rudder that won't fall off when flipper scratches his back on it.

Yep, thus the reason why I have a full keel heavy cruiser. the boat usually handles the storms better than the humans! hahaha
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Old 22-04-2014, 05:35   #299
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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True, but we have to build a race boat to beat it. My point is, the old clipper ships went that speed with full keel heavy displacement.
Sure we can beat it with racing technology but that's not really a fair comparison.
I don't see any full keel heavy cruisers today fully loaded with cargo doing 18 knots. just seams like we still have some things to learn from the past to help us in the future.
The speed in pure displacement mode depends on the LWL. For having big speeds on an heavy full keel boat you need a ship like the one you refer with a LOA of almost 250ft.

The bigger average speeds attained by the small 60ft is only possible because it sails in semi displacement mode without too much wind.

There are not many modern light performance cruisers that are designed to sail in semi displacing mode even if there are some. Most of all are designed to easily reach hull speed, most do that with 10k wind, and to sail a bit over it with any decent wind. That allows them to have a substantially better overall performance than an heavier full keel boat. You have only to go to an Handicap rating and compare old heavier full keel boats with modern light cruisers and you will see a big difference in handicap and that means a big difference in overall speed.

It is because there are such a big difference in handicap that a full keel like Dorade can be the overall winner (in compensated) of a race like the transpac.
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Old 22-04-2014, 05:52   #300
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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...True modern race boats do not make good cruising boats.
...
A good cruising boat is one that satisfies the needs of many cruisers and that is the case with the Pogo that has been a big sale success. The Cruising Pogos have a swing keel and are not used for racing. For that there are racing Pogos.

The hull of the Pogo 12.50, one of the more popular, is the same of the Pogo 40class racer and it works very well in what regards satisfying the cruisers that use it.

I agree generically with you in what regards the hulls of top racing boats that are designed to be sailed by a big crew. They are not easy to sail, give speed but demand a tight control that only a crew can provide.

That's quite the opposite with the hulls that are used for solo racing: They are designed to be forgiven and to allow the control of the boat (with a huge sail power) by a single sailor, most of the time in autopilot. When used in cruising those hulls are rigged with smaller masts and smaller sail area and that makes the control even easier.

Of course, many would prefer other type of boats that would offer less speed and stability but a more soft motion upwind and they are right about their choice that is as right as the ones that prefer more speed and don't mind with the less soft ride. Boats with hulls derived from solo sailors or even solo sailors with a reduced rig will give good cruising boats for the ones that like to cruise fast and without a lot of stuff, or comforts like AC, a wooden interior and the like. Several modern cruising boats are designed around that concept, several designed for extensive cruising, to cross oceans or to circumnavigate. Here you have one of those:

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