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Old 25-03-2014, 06:49   #16
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Here is a potentially useful resource:

Best Offshore Cruising Sailboats < $40K
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Old 25-03-2014, 06:52   #17
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Don't get too hung up on the full keel thing. Put more consideration into where you'll be spending your time and what you'll be doing. For example, someday I'd like to spend some time in the Bahamas, Florida Keys, Caribbean etc., our present boat with a 7.2ft draft isn't a good choice for this area. Maybe someday we'll switch over to the dark side and trade our digs for a Sunreef 59 catamaran which would make more sense.
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Old 25-03-2014, 07:07   #18
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I would love to know what your criteria are that have led your research and conversations with people to the conclusion that you need a full keel boat. If they were unquestionably the best design for offshore, then everyone would still be making them.

As pointed out, that requirement is what is responsible for the LOA vs interior volume compromise. Pretty much 95% of older full keel boats (i.e. those in your price range) are going to have overhangs. Just a fact. Your pretty much confined to double enders, which is not a bad thing, it just means your pool of possible candidates, both in terms of design and available candidates, is extremely small.

If you're absolutely dead set on the full keel, I would look at the Baba 40, a Bob Perry design that is a modified full keel, built by Ta Shing at the height of its powers, roomy, and actually quite fast for what it is.

I would not look at Hinkley. You pay a premium for the name and they are small and cramped and dark inside. They are great New England yachty yachts for weekend forays to Nantucket and they are absolutely gorgeous and sail well but they suck as live a boards.

If I were you I would ditch the full keel requirement. That will increase your options exponentially as well as your comfort and space. If you're really all that worried about the rudder then look for a skeg-hung rudder fin keel boat. There are lots of designs from the 70's/80's that should be in your price range. If you do, take a look at Valiant 40s. Obviously I'm partial, but you can find pre-blister era boats in your price range. Ignore the listed prices you see, many Valiant owners have an inflated sense of their worth on the market.

Regarding your budget and the boats you're looking at. You should be able to get any boat you see listed on YachtWorld for +/- 70% of the price you see listed if you're a decent negotiator unless it's immaculate and/or a highly desirable example of a particular model. Keep that in mind as you search. Just because a boat is listed at $100k does not mean you can't snag it with money to spare. And you will need that spare cash.

Lastly if you have never owned a big boat, you need to fully understand how much time and money it can take to "fix it up." If you walk through a boat thinking "Oh I can do that. And that, and that and that and that." maybe you can but you may quickly find that what you thought would take you a few months ends up being years and years. I've heard that story from new old boat owners so many times it makes my ears hurt just thinking about it. The newer and better cared for boat you can find that fits your requirements, the better off you'll be if you don't have a lot of experience fixing up a boat. It's like growing old, it ain't for pussies.
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Old 25-03-2014, 07:16   #19
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I agree that the b40 is dark below and overpRiced. The Whitby 42 is aproven classic butc has a coMplicated deck layout due to the ketch rig. I would suggest looking at the cal 39 but as I recall they draw 7 feet. The morgan383 and bristol 411 maybe worth alook.
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Old 25-03-2014, 07:21   #20
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I'm afraid this is the bit where everyone pushes the boat THEY bought. After all, they voted with their hard-earned cash, didn't they? OK, maybe someone else will push for some boat they saw at the dock, or saw anchored out, or read about on the internet.

But the truth is that selecting a boat is 70% emotional, 30% logical. Boats aren't simply practical, they're also a bit of art.

You'll have to look around and find what YOU want. You can ask others what they like, but they'll come up with practical reasons to justify what they like aesthetically. Don't let people here talk you into or out of any given boat.

My advice is to get out there and look at these boats on your list. You can't just read about them, go see them. There are lots of trade-offs, but it's got to be about YOUR preference, not some other guys on a cruisers forum.

BTW, any boat on your list will get the job done. So get the one that makes your heart thump a little faster than the others.
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Old 25-03-2014, 07:34   #21
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Mark,
Combining your "full-keel" and "heavy displacement" requirements, and your requirements of good living space below decks, makes for an almost impossible solution....and now adding in your new requirement of a budget of < $80,000...no question that anything with a "Hinckley" name is out....but I DO have a possible perfect boat for you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpricer View Post
Ideally, I would like to keep it under 80K...don't see why I can't do that given the inventory I've been seeing. Compromise, compromise, compromise!
It's called an "Unobtainia 40.9", and is only sold one day each year (this coming Saturday, April 1st)....


Now that I'm fully awake and alert, and as I re-read your posting in the light-of-day, I'm thinking that you can't actually be serious about this, as even basic "research" and some casual "conversations" would have certainly educated you to the facts that I and others have laid out here for you...prior to your coming here!!
So, now I'm thinking that you may be a rather well-spoken humorist that is just pulling all of our legs....doing a big April Fool's joke on us all???

And, yeah....you did fool me, late last night...
So, kudos to 'ya!




And, letsgetsailing.....this is why I questioned right up front WHY Mark was asking others to post their choice of boat....as this just starts a thread of "mine is best" comments...
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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
I'm afraid this is the bit where everyone pushes the boat THEY bought. After all, they voted with their hard-earned cash, didn't they?
But, at least I gave two solid recommendations of boats that I don't own (but have sailed on)....the Hinckley Bermuda 40 and the Tayana 37...(and the Tayana 37 even fits his newly-disclosed budget!)





Good luck and fair winds...


John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 25-03-2014, 07:41   #22
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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s/v Jedi, I don't worry to much about the fin keel, I am sold on displacement however. I do worry about an unprotected rudder. Has that consideration ever concerned you?

To answer your question I've been looking at, in no particular order:

Allied Mistress 39'
Westsail 42'
Hans Christian 38T
Lord Nelson 41'
Tayana 38'
Morgan 383
Pearson 424
Cape George (can't find many)
Dickerson 40'
Bristol 39/40(too narrow)
Like others wrote, I would go for a Jeanneau or Beneteau or Moody but from your list I know that the Westsail, Hans Christian, Tayana, Morgan and Pearson are all pretty well suited for your plans. All of those are slower with less live aboard comfort and smaller interior than a Jeanneau.
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:07   #23
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Westsail 42 or 43. Tall cutter rig.

Fits many of your criteria. But get a good survey which is true of all the boats. If I went newer maybe a Catalina 470?

Note: I have the boat you describe and it is safe with a comfortable motion. Fast enough and built strong. Much of the time I'd prefer the new bigger boat like a Catalina 470. (Like at anchor or in light winds but in a blow I'll keep the old heavy full keel cutter with a barndoor rudder)
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:08   #24
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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MJark,

You state that you want a full-keel heavy displacement boat. Yet I haven't heard the reasoning behind this desire. There are many good reasons for wanting such a boat, but quality of life/space/livibility/sailing characteristics are not some of them.

A modern fin keel/spade rudder will generally have much more room below, sail better, have a bigger cockpit and generally give greater satisfaction. If you're worried about the blue water aspects, many a modern boat has circumnavigated. Modern boats are virtually always tougher than their crews. The crews end up abandoning ship and the boat bobs along without a care afterwards.

For 80K you could look at something like a Jenneau 40.3 Sun Odysessy from say the early 2000's. These are great boats, sail well and gangs of room below. Same for a Neneteau in the same size. Or a Moody.

LOts of these boats out there, and at good prices.
Carstenb,

Yes you guessed right...I am concerned with the issue of stability and that has been the driving force in my search thus far. It is becoming quite obvious that many on this forum do not share my belief that full keel, heavy displacement equals stability. That's probably a good thing, and certainly why I'm here. Not being a sailboat owner, having never bought one and only sailed on very small keel boats I'm trying to find middle ground for my search. Of course, I'm probably hooked on the full keel, heavy displacement angle because it's been owners of those types of boats that I've been talking to the most. Anyway, I have time, there is no rush and this exercise will no doubt help to flush out my true expectations.

Thanks
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:26   #25
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I wish the OP good luck, but am always amused by people who insist they "need" some type of boat because of some reading and then looking for a forum to agree.
Sailorboy1,

Certainly not interested in agreement, only information. Thus far as you can see by the other responses, I've received little in the way of agreement. The point of this exercise, at least to my thinking was to garner input. I expected much of that input to be in the form of questioning my assumptions and I have not be disappointed thus far. I began this quest with certain preconceived notions I admit, however I am certainly not locked into any one way of thinking. I understand that compromise will be necessary, I just don't want it to be in the area of safety.

Thanks for the comment.

Mark
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:26   #26
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Life is full of compromises. My best was to live aboard a 47 Island Trader. a lot of plusses and minuses, too many to list here but if you want more details just pm me.
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:27   #27
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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... I have determined through both research and conversation that the best type of sailboat for us would be a full keeled, heavy displacement boat in the 39 to 42 foot range. ... this boat is as good as a full keel boat without the downsides etc, or the you don't really need a full keel when a fin will do just as well. I have also discovered that many a craft may have 45 feet on deck, but when you get below they are considerably lacking, like 32 feet at the water line. No thanks! ... but long overhangs that jack up the LOA while the builders jam two cabins and a head in 10 less feet below is ridiculous. I don't what to have to buy 55 feet of boat to get 39 feet at the water line. Can anyone relate?
Mark, I have no where near the expertise of many (most?) on CF, including some that have already posted here. However, I do own a "full-keel, heavy displacement" boat that is just shy of your required LOA. And I share your perspective on the value of these designs. So in that light let me say (as others have), that your specs or needs may be a bit contradictory.

Firstly, "traditional" (whatever that means) full-keel, heavy displacement boats tend to have longer overhangs and narrower beams. This means their LWL, and general crew space, is going to be a lot smaller that their LOA would suggest. Our boat has a LOA of 36.75' and a LWL of 32', with a beam of 12'. I personally love our living space for two people, but many might find it compact. It is certainly a lot smaller than newer boats with similar LOA.

All this is to say if you require spacious accommodation in a smallish LOA, then you should probably look to newer designs. And although it pains me to say, there is nothing wrong with the newer designs. Clearly most are as solid and safe as any other good quality "traditional" boat, new or old. If living space is what you want at an inexpensive price, there's no question; look at a newer Bena/Jeanna/Hunta/etca (they all look the same to me ).

The best thing you can do is actually get on as many boats as you can. Sail as many as you can. If cruising is your plan, then try and spend real time on some. Only then can you really learn what you need (vs what you think you want). And when you're ready, find yourself a good Rafiki-37. They are the best choice .
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:28   #28
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Here is a list that might be helpful. These are blue water sailboats
Full List of Sailboats
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:29   #29
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Our Cabo Rico is a cut away keel. Not quite a full keel but close.

Frankly, there were times coming down the ICW I was happy we had a full keel - we had three soft groundings. I'm also happy in MY choice because we now HAVE choices. We can go anywhere and the boat isn't really uncomfortable at all for 2 people. It was blowing a gale coming down the Chesapeake this December and we could easily go to the head, make lunch (and keep it down), etc.

However, people sail the world in Bene's all the time and the reality is that you spend about 10% of your time actually moving the boat, so a larger more comfortable boat is a great choice.

We ran into a guy from the Denmark here in Florida who had taken an older Beneteau and converted it to a great world cruiser and sailed it ALL over. I wouldn't say that it cost him more money to do that (or time) over our Cabo Rico because he had a lot more room to get to wires, hosing, pipes, etc... and he has a lot more storage than we do. Say what you will about the Beneteau's not being blue water and I would have to disagree... he proves anyone can take most any boat and make it a blue water cruiser.

Here is a list of the Pacific Puddle Jump for this year... if you look at the list, you will see a wide variety of boats.

Pacific Puddle Jump Fleet 2014
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Old 25-03-2014, 08:32   #30
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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One thing to consider is that many older designs emphasize storage space over open area in their below decks design. So, when you look down below, it looks a lot smaller than you would expect, but there is considerably more storage available than in most modern design interiors. When you move aboard, storage is a lot more important than 'space.'
Argyle38,

I do see what you mean, of course up to now I've only looked at boats that I thought met my criterion. (not being real sure what that criterion was) and I did note that while living space seemed cramped, there was generally tons of stowage space. Now if I can only find a happy medium.
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