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Old 30-03-2014, 15:28   #211
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I replied to a post where you said that modern light boats loaded are "dogs" to sail. Loaded with the same load, a modern boat with a similar length of an old heavy boat will be much faster than the heavy boat.

If I'm understanding your statement correctly, wouldn't the load changes be based on load change as a percentage, and the resulting increased wetted area?

So if you add 1,000 pounds to a heavy displacement boat, it seems to me that it wouldn't have the same effect as adding 1,000 pounds to a light displacement boat in terms of the difference in wetted area. I'd guess the effect on speed would likely be more pronounced on the lower displacement boat. I'm sure someone here knows for sure.
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Old 30-03-2014, 15:58   #212
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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....
I think there is way too much concern for "bluewater" capability, when 90% of the people just want to cruise up and down the coast or go to the Bahamas. The safest boat is the one that's in the best condition, and that meets the basic requirements, not necessarily the one with the most coveted marque.
Cannot agree more. I listen to people talk about 30 year old boats has great blue water boats as if they were new boats. To keep a 30 year old boat in new state condition takes proportionally the same money as to keep a 30 year old car in new condition and that is about the same as a new car or boat. In 30 years almost everything but the hull should have been replaced, many things not once, but several times and it is seldom the case.

Yes, it is not impossible to find an old boat in "new" condition but that would be a miracle. Providing the boat is suited to the program and sailing tastes of a sailor the best "old" boat is almost always the one that is in better condition.
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Old 30-03-2014, 16:17   #213
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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If I'm understanding your statement correctly, wouldn't the load changes be based on load change as a percentage, and the resulting increased wetted area?

So if you add 1,000 pounds to a heavy displacement boat, it seems to me that it wouldn't have the same effect as adding 1,000 pounds to a light displacement boat in terms of the difference in wetted area. I'd guess the effect on speed would likely be more pronounced on the lower displacement boat. I'm sure someone here knows for sure.
Two answers to your question:

Regarding percentage of the weight you are right and that means that on a light displacement the way the load is distributed has more importance. Also the difference in performance while loaded or lightweight will be more noticeable on the modern light boat.

The modern boat however, if the max load is not exceeded will continue to have a better performance and for boats with the same length, assuming a heavier narrower old boat and a modern beamier one, the narrower boat would not have normally a bigger load ability.

Regarding boats with the same length, a narrower heavy old boat and a beamier modern boat, if we load both with 2000 pounds the narrower old boat will sink more inches then the beamier modern one. The lightweight of the boat has nothing to do with it, the water plan of the boat has. The charge on the beamier boat will be distributed by the much larger waterplane. The modern boat will stay much nearer of its original waterline when loaded.
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Old 30-03-2014, 16:18   #214
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Agree w/ Polux. Don't forget also the ridiculous previous owner mods.
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Old 30-03-2014, 17:02   #215
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Here we are having no fun, wishing we could go faster. Average speed crossing to Milwaukee was 8.5 knots. We saw 11.2 under jib alone for the last 10 miles with 22 to 26 apparent broad reaching. It was totally comfortable. We picked this boat so that we DIDN'T have to sit on the rail. Lynn was willing (her idea) to go cruising but she didn't want to go racing or camping. For us, heavy modified full keel heavy old school skeg rudder. This boat is like riding your living room couch in 12 foot Lake Michigan chop. I raced light-weight go-fasts for many years. I have no illusions about trying to tweek another 0.1 kn on a crossing.
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Old 30-03-2014, 17:32   #216
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
...

I believe that it would be more accurate to say that for some sailors cruising is more rewarding than sailing and for those sailing is just a mean to cruise.

For others (racers) sail is and end in itself and even if they do it in a boat that can be used for cruising, they never cruise.

For some sailing fun is as satisfying and important as cruising. For those sailing is not only a mean for cruising for but an activity and a sport they enjoy even if they don't race and sail only when cruising.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this statement. For some, sailing is just a means to get somewhere. For others, it's part of the fun of cruising.

After seeing many (many, many) of these types over the years and having similar conversations with sailing friends, I've come to the conclusion that owners of relatively fast, "performance cruisers" must really hate sailing. After all, I'll get to spend a lot more time sailing on my Downeaster 38 than someone on a much faster boat, for a given trip.

Whenever I see one of those go-fast boats blazing from port to port, I just look on in pity and think 'poor bastards, they must be miserable.'
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Old 30-03-2014, 17:38   #217
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Here we are having no fun, wishing we could go faster. Average speed crossing to Milwaukee was 8.5 knots. We saw 11.2 under jib alone for the last 10 miles with 22 to 26 apparent broad reaching. It was totally comfortable. We picked this boat so that we DIDN'T have to sit on the rail. Lynn was willing (her idea) to go cruising but she didn't want to go racing or camping. For us, heavy modified full keel heavy old school skeg rudder. This boat is like riding your living room couch in 12 foot Lake Michigan chop. I raced light-weight go-fasts for many years. I have no illusions about trying to tweek another 0.1 kn on a crossing.
I am glad to know that some more sail at two digit speeds but on a 58ft boat you have a big LWL. Most don't have the money to maintain or buy a 58ft boat, however some 40ft performance cruisers will do faster than that without seating on the rails. I am not judging (except speed) and I believe that is the perfect boat for you and your wife, but some like to go faster than that on a 40ft boat even if not with all the space you have on the interior.
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Old 30-03-2014, 17:58   #218
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Two answers to your question:

The modern boat however, if the max load is not exceeded will continue to have a better performance and for boats with the same length, assuming a heavier narrower old boat and a modern beamier one, the narrower boat would not have normally a bigger load ability.
Probably the difference in our thinking is that I wasn't assuming that the older boat would necessarily be narrower, only that it would have a different keel design.

I think the core assumption in favor of the higher displacement boat is that it in fact is designed to be heavier without overloading it, and can handle a cruising load. If you compare a higher displacement boat to a boat that is designed for speed but not that load, your assumptions don't hold. In other words, you've made assumptions that change the core point.
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Old 30-03-2014, 18:18   #219
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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... I've come to the conclusion that owners of relatively fast, "performance cruisers" must really hate sailing. After all, I'll get to spend a lot more time sailing on my Downeaster 38 than someone on a much faster boat, for a given trip.

Whenever I see one of those go-fast boats blazing from port to port, I just look on in pity and think 'poor bastards, they must be miserable.'
I hope you are kidding but you certainly have a sense of humour

Of course those that pass by you sailing fast with a grin on their faces and water flying around would look at you and think: Just how bored can these guys be
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Old 30-03-2014, 19:47   #220
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Probably the difference in our thinking is that I wasn't assuming that the older boat would necessarily be narrower, only that it would have a different keel design.

I think the core assumption in favor of the higher displacement boat is that it in fact is designed to be heavier without overloading it, and can handle a cruising load. If you compare a higher displacement boat to a boat that is designed for speed but not that load, your assumptions don't hold. In other words, you've made assumptions that change the core point.

Regarding that core assumption that modern cruisers are beamier than older ones, it is not only beam but the beam brought aft that increases the waterplan when you load the boat.

When I think about modern mass production beamy cruisers I am thinking about the Oceanis 41 with a beam of 4.20m beam, the Hanse 415 with 4.17m and most of the other 40ft that have about 4.00m.

Perhaps regarding my core basic assumption that modern cruisers are beamier, that you consider wrong, you can tell me of what old heavy beamy boats you are thinking about, I mean the ones with 40fts with 4.00m beam and over. I am not understanding about what boats you refer. By old designed heavy boats I think about the Tayana 42, The Cabo Rico 40, the Passport 40, the Caliber 40 the Morris 40, all with beams around 3.85m, some with less.

New cruising designs are beamier than old ones and they are designed to cruise and to sail with a cruising load. That load, considered boats with the same length, is not less than the one that any old typically narrower cruiser could carry (the one stipulated by the NA).
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Old 31-03-2014, 05:20   #221
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Why not try doing a charter boat hire ,and maybe join a sailing club for a while that way u get to go out on other folks boats ,get to pick there brains, most any body who owns a boat would be happy to show off there pride and joy and be more honest in there opinions of how their boat handles , I spent about a year and a half doing that before buying my own boat ,and along the way meet some really. Nice people.
And in the end was extremely happy with my purchase,which incidentally was through word of mouth (saving brokerage fees)
if the worst comes to the worst and you buy a boat at the right price and are not happy about it you can then move it on and not be to much out of pocket for your next purchase
Good luck with your search
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Old 31-03-2014, 20:34   #222
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

There are Camper Nicholson yachts offered on the Yahoo group site. Most are listed on Yachtworld. Nearly all are full or modified full, encapsulated keel. This search also finds a few really nice classics. CN built all of the royal yachts and many J-boats over their 200 + year history.



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Old 31-03-2014, 23:29   #223
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Met one couple who like being at sea and were in no hurry to get to destination. Finished a 4 month leg around the bottom of Australia last year. (Admittedly a little frustrated it took 4 months instead of 3 months.) They would probably have enjoyed a faster boat but they're attached to the one they've got and it's been home for decades.
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:32   #224
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I don't know if MPricer is around any more, but, thinking back to my experiences sailing a Herreshoff Mobjack with friends on the first weekend in March, this is a boat he might actually like, and not be bothered by its lack of maneuverability.

It's a 45 ft. ketch, and with lovely accommodations. There are two in this area at this time, of which I am aware.

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Old 01-04-2014, 04:27   #225
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Polux is correct when he suggests that a light weight beamier boat will sink less in the water compared to an older heavier displacement narrower boat but the difference is very little.
Keep in mind that when you sink a light weight beamy boat your adding a lot of additional surface area so your best keeping a modern boat as light as practically possible.
The biggest difference between the two is that the heaver boat has a slower motion and doesn't pound going to windward in a larger seaway so for some folks comfort of the heavier boats is very important.
My personal preferences are on the lighter/medium side as these boats tend to sail better in lighter winds which for those that have done a fair amount of offshore sailing know is pretty common, saves on fuel as well.
The downside of many modern boats is that they are designed for dock side or at anchor living because very little thought has gone into the real needs of offshore sailors with proper hand holds, excellent storage and few open spaces to fall across. This of course is very understandable because 99% of the buyers use these boats for day sailing and most spend 95% of their time at the dock. From the manufactures standpoint its a win win because there is a lot less material used to make boats today than in times past. If my memory serves me Island Packet is about the only builder still using full keels
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