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Old 28-03-2014, 21:04   #196
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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goboatingnow, (regarding full keeled boats), you say, “If that were the case all club racers would be full keel”. No, that is not what I am implying. All of my references were to fully loaded cruising boats, or very long distance races whereby any boat participating is going to be well loaded down. Most lighter weight, fin keeled boats are faster around the buoys than most full keelers. I know this as well as you. The PHRF ratings indicate this. These ratings are based on “empty boats”. What I am saying is that when that very same fin keeled boat is fully loaded, or over loaded, it will be slower than the boat that was designed heavier in the first place. A small to medium sized boat, when cruising or as a live aboard, can easily be 60 seconds per mile slower than it’s PHRF rating. I, in no way, am “dissing” fin keeled boats.
As stated to the OP: for cruising and/or live-aboarding, I much prefer the full keel heavy displacement boat for boats under about 43 feet.
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I'm sorry this is a nonsense argument. You can have heavy fin keels( like a HR ) , or light fin keels. A heavier boat has its load as a smaller percentage of all up weight, hence it can so called perform better as a proportion of its polars. A lightweight board irrespective of keel will always be affected by weight.

Weight for weight the boat with the least wetted surface will be faster.

As to long distance races , do you see any any long keels on modern ocean racers , or how about of the challenge yachts ( try telling me these are lightweight )

What you are doing sir is bending the argument to suit your conclusion. A conclusion every modern NA disagrees with.

The fact is long keels are like old cars , good to look at , but I'd prefer to be doing 120 in a modem BMW.

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Old 28-03-2014, 21:06   #197
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The newer light weight boats have powerful flat aft sections and that allows them to carry a lot of sail on a reach plus when well off the wind the boats will surf with little effort. Newer boats usually have very long water lines compared to overall length. It is true that a sailboats speed is controlled by the waterline but again the lightweight flyers can overcome the hole they dig by surfing. Some of the racing monohulls are quite a bit faster than the cruising cats.
The advantage that the older displacement hulls have is that they can carry a hell of a load and still perform close to specs while a light weight mono hull is a bit like a cat, it turns into a dog when heavily overloaded loaded.
You can call it a dog but even so loaded a light fast cruiser is still way faster than an heavy cruiser. I agree that no boat should be overloaded but considering similar lengths the max load of a light boat is normally not very different than the one of an heavy cruiser, specially if it is an old one with a narrow hull that will go down with the same load a lot more inches than a beamier boat.

Also the load that an ultra light displacement cruiser can carry is many times overlooked to the point that some consider them unsuitable for long distance cruising because they cannot carry the needed load to cross ocean.

Take for instance these guys that circumnavigated in an home built 395 Classic, normally 4 or 5 in the boat with all the needed load....and they go fast for a 40fter:



I cannot remember if their max speed on the loading condition was 16 or 17K but two digit speeds were very common.

I am not defending this type of boat for the OP or to anybody that don't like to travel fast and enjoy sailing but they are clearly an option to some, as well as to others heavy slow displacement boats is what suits them.
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Old 28-03-2014, 21:29   #198
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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...I am not defending this type of boat for the OP or to anybody that don't like to travel fast and enjoy sailing but ....
Don't you think we're having fun sailing below 10 knots?
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Old 29-03-2014, 01:13   #199
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

oh, Argyle,

If you only knew! Jim reads heaps of sources. Firstly, he speed reads, so I can't ever keep up with him! Secondly, he is a broadly curious fellow, he just likes to learn about *stuff*. So he reads widely and copiously -- I'm pretty sure he has at least two whole naval architecture texts under his belt, just 'cause it's fun to read and learn. And he can remember and quote, too. outta my league.

Of course I'm biased in Jim's favor, but the above is as correct and true as I can make it.

Ann
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Old 29-03-2014, 01:34   #200
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Two digit speeds for 99% of the cruisers in lighter modern boats is a joke. Most cruisers are couples and the average passage times don't even approach those types of speeds. Even the cruising Cats seldom average 200 mile days so its armchair sailing at its best to suggest otherwise.
I have owned smaller light weight boats and have sailed them over loaded offshore and my average speeds were well down from when I was lighter. The idea that light weight boats don't go well down on their lines when loaded is simply wrong.
Look, I'm not a fan of heavy displacement long keel boats but trying to make a case that you can overload a light weight boat and expect it to perform anywhere near its potential is just as silly as suggesting a heavy displacement boat can kick ass to a light weight flyer in light winds.
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Old 29-03-2014, 17:15   #201
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Don't you think we're having fun sailing below 10 knots?
Sure, if it is upwind
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Old 29-03-2014, 17:30   #202
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Two digit speeds for 99% of the cruisers in lighter modern boats is a joke. Most cruisers are couples and the average passage times don't even approach those types of speeds......
Look, I'm not a fan of heavy displacement long keel boats but trying to make a case that you can overload a light weight boat and expect it to perform anywhere near its potential is just as silly as suggesting a heavy displacement boat can kick ass to a light weight flyer in light winds.
I agree, but I had not said that. you said that a light boat with a normal cruising load was a dog. I only pointed out that the light performance cruiser with the same load is still much faster than an heavier boat and I posted a movie to back it up, of a 40ft fast boat loaded for a circumnavigation with 5 guys aboard.

Regarding two digit speeds for cruisers in lighter modern boats to be a joke, it depends on the size of the boat but if you are considering boats around 40ft then it is odd because I know a lot of friends that do that regularly, including me even if I am on the slow side comparing with most of them Wow!!!! all on the 1%

I never talked about an average speed of the two digits but in sailing at two digit speeds...not all the time but from time to time, sometimes for hours.
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Old 29-03-2014, 23:04   #203
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Polux, If you go back and re read my post I specifically stated "overloading" the light weight boat, that means to add considerably more weight than it was designed to carry. This causes the boat to sink well below its lines which adds considerably to the wetted surface and drag as well as puts higher loads on the rigging. Its not uncommon to see boats in the 30-mid 30 foot range loaded down well beyond what they were designed for and the sailing is effected. Boats in the mid 40's are large enough to carry a typical cruising load from the get go.
Why do you think race boats get stripped of every every additional useless pound onboard?? Quite simply racers know that if you want to go quick you don't do it in an overloaded boat.
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Old 30-03-2014, 13:08   #204
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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This isn't about fun on the water. All boats are fun.

...
It depends on each one call having fun in a sailboat. Some will have fun having guests aboard but if we are talking about sailing its about like saying that all cars are fun to drive. Sure if you like to drive a 20 ton truck has its challenges and to be able to do it safely can give some personal satisfaction but when we talk about fun driving we think about the kind of fun a Porsche, a Ferrari or a Maserati can give. You can say that a mini city Honda is fun too....but is not the same amount of fun that you will have in a Ferrari...it is not even the same scale of fun.

Let's say that if all boats are fun to sail, there are ones that are a lot more fun than others and even so I doubt everybody will found them all fun to sail. I find some pretty boring even if they can transport cruisers from point A to point B.

I believe that it would be more accurate to say that for some sailors cruising is more rewarding than sailing and for those sailing is just a mean to cruise.

For others (racers) sail is and end in itself and even if they do it in a boat that can be used for cruising, they never cruise.

For some sailing fun is as satisfying and important as cruising. For those sailing is not only a mean for cruising for but an activity and a sport they enjoy even if they don't race and sail only when cruising.

That's why there is so many different types of Cruising boats on the market. Most of then can cross oceans safely, but they do it in different ways with cruisers that enjoy cruising differently. There is not a right boat for doing it but there is a right boat for a given cruiser and for each type of cruiser what is having fun in a sailboat can be a very different thing. what some find fun can be only scary and uncomfortable to others and what some would find perfect sailing can just be dead boring to others.
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Old 30-03-2014, 13:13   #205
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Good post!
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Old 30-03-2014, 13:32   #206
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Polux, If you go back and re read my post I specifically stated "overloading" the light weight boat, that means to add considerably more weight than it was designed to carry. This causes the boat to sink well below its lines which adds considerably to the wetted surface and drag as well as puts higher loads on the rigging. Its not uncommon to see boats in the 30-mid 30 foot range loaded down well beyond what they were designed for and the sailing is effected. Boats in the mid 40's are large enough to carry a typical cruising load from the get go.
Why do you think race boats get stripped of every every additional useless pound onboard?? Quite simply racers know that if you want to go quick you don't do it in an overloaded boat.
Race boats get as light as they can because lighter boats are faster. The notion you seem to be defending (and that is not true) is that a modern light boat has a lesser load ability than an heavy old designed boat of the same length. Older designs tend to be much narrower and that means that they will sink much more for the same load since its water-plan is much smaller.

I replied to a post where you said that modern light boats loaded are "dogs" to sail. Loaded with the same load, a modern boat with a similar length of an old heavy boat will be much faster than the heavy boat. The modern boat will reach more easily hull speed and and can go a bit over it. It will do that with less wind and will accelerate faster. Off course, the same modern boat with a lighter load will be faster and in the case of being one of the few cruising boats that can plane, that ability will be greatly diminished with a full load.

Both the heavy old boat and the modern cruiser overloaded will be dogs and dangerous boats to sail ( The AVS of a sailboat is higher with the boat unloaded and starts to diminish with the load)). All new boats have an established maximum load according with the RCD certification.

If we are saying the same thing it seems I have misunderstood what you were sayng
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Old 30-03-2014, 14:20   #207
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

check out freshwater boats on the Great Lakes. NO SALT, short seasons. This will require a bit of research & phone calls to set up a road trip. Here are the boats at Torresen in Muskegon Mich.

Brokerage Department | Torresen Marine
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Old 30-03-2014, 14:35   #208
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Quite a challenge to find an ideal liveaboard boat with your requirements less than 45'.

We looked at more than 125 yachts on our 80 day road trip. It's amazing what you find when you start looking really hard.

Good luck in your search.

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Old 30-03-2014, 15:12   #209
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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That's why there is so many different types of Cruising boats on the market. Most of then can cross oceans safely, but they do it in different ways with cruisers that enjoy cruising differently. There is not a right boat for doing it but there is a right boat for a given cruiser and for each type of cruiser what is having fun in a sailboat can be a very different thing. what some find fun can be only scary and uncomfortable to others and what some would find perfect sailing can just be dead boring to others.
I don't disagree with that at all. But the vague way the question is usually asked, and the very precise nature at which advice is often conveyed doesn't relate to this.

If someone says "I want a bluewater cruiser. What is the best boat for me?" The responses tend to very quickly starts out "You need the boat I bought. They're proven bluewater cruisers!" Later, it becomes "the boats you're considering aren't even bluewater cruisers (whatever that even means). The keel might fall off!" vs "Oh gawd, with that kind of speed, how will you ever get anywhere? You'll be late for drinks!"

Sometimes we even forget to ask the basics, like where will you be sailing the next 5 years? The fact is that there are many full keel or fin keel boats that meet the basic need. In terms of practicalities, both kinds will do the job. The rest is just a set of compromises that the individual, not the group, has to make.

The car equivalent would be "I need a car to go across the country", and the responses tend to be "Oh, you should absolutely consider a Ferrari. I saw one of those I liked once. You should get a BMW - I'm very happy with mine. I like my Lexus. My Volkswagen is very dependable. I feel very safe in my Volvo. I like my Chevy Malibu! I'm happy with my Ford 150.

Different vehicles, different capabilities, different strengths and weaknesses. Lots of personal preferences. They'll all do the job if they're maintained.

I think there is way too much concern for "bluewater" capability, when 90% of the people just want to cruise up and down the coast or go to the Bahamas. The safest boat is the one that's in the best condition, and that meets the basic requirements, not necessarily the one with the most coveted marque.
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Old 30-03-2014, 15:17   #210
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

[QUOTE=leftbrainstuff;1505604

We looked at more than 125 yachts on our 80 day road trip. It's amazing what you find when you start looking really hard.
[/QUOTE]

That's a lot of pressure for the boat to live up to. I'm on my second cruiser and have looked a TOTAL of 6 boats in person.
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