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Old 28-03-2014, 12:30   #181
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

oregonian makes a good point in this post about sailing offshore that's often overlooked here. Anyone looking to buy a boat for offshore would do well to find a way to evaluate the tendency to pound of any boat that they're considering.

I sailed from Virginia to the BVI on a Comet (36' Italian design), and we had to constantly hand steer, making quick little "S" turns as we crested the swells to keep from pounding so badly that the skipper was worried about losing the rig. It was a tiring experience. I was very thankful that on subsequent passages in my own boat, pounding wasn't an issue.
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Old 28-03-2014, 12:43   #182
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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As always a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks Robert sailor for affirming the the loaded boat point made by Oregonian.
These pictures have been used before ... notice the dinghy... this is a cruising boat
I think the light air performance is pretty good.



Is Saraband your boat? I sailed Mexico extensively with the previous owners in the mid 80's.
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Old 28-03-2014, 12:47   #183
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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oregonian makes a good point in this post about sailing offshore that's often overlooked here. Anyone looking to buy a boat for offshore would do well to find a way to evaluate the tendency to pound of any boat that they're considering.

I sailed from Virginia to the BVI on a Comet (36' Italian design), and we had to constantly hand steer, making quick little "S" turns as we crested the swells to keep from pounding so badly that the skipper was worried about losing the rig. It was a tiring experience. I was very thankful that on subsequent passages in my own boat, pounding wasn't an issue.
Good Point, often not brought up. Has more to do with the layup I spose rather than a full/fin thing. But.. fin keel boats do tend to be lighter built... just a nature of the beast usually I guess. I used to race on a Cal 40 years ago, going to wether in heavy chop the bow would flex in and out and sounded terrible. When I evaluated a Cali ber 40 for friends I pounded on the bow from the inside and it shook alot. My chinese boats were rock solid when you did that.
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Old 28-03-2014, 13:10   #184
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

oregonian, I think the anecdotal examples you gave of Westsail's passing other boats in the Transpac is a little misleading. As you know in ocean races boats follow differing courses, run into differing wind and sea conditions, and generally lose sight of each other in short order. As a result, any "apples to apples" comparisons in boat speed from one given race should be regarded with deep suspicion. As an example I recently delivered a 45' fin keeler which tipped the scales at 35k lbs loaded out from the Canaries to St. Lucia, leaving on the tail of the ARC. When we arrived we were docked next to a purpose built 45' ocean racer that was racing hard. We made the trip in 21 days. They made it in 20 days. The eye-popping proximity in time was most definitely a function weather along the chosen route. Incidentally, the winner of last year's race sailed NORTH from the Canaries, and ultimately sailed more miles than any other boat in the race.

I will not argue the fact that a boat with a pronounced forefoot is going to go to weather more comfortably, and as a result in some cases more effectively and quicker, than one without. A Valiant will grind upwind when boats with less wetted surface have fallen off, and a full keeler will still be at it after the Valiant has called it off, all other things being equal. But that is a very specific scenario. And all the boats will get there, just in varying degrees of comfort and effectiveness.
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Old 28-03-2014, 13:55   #185
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Is Saraband your boat? I sailed Mexico extensively with the previous owners in the mid 80's.
No, Saraband still belongs to Dave
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Old 28-03-2014, 14:06   #186
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Randy,
I don't include the Benni 1st 42 as a light weight because it isn't. Your boat makes a wonderful cruising boat, it's built the old fashion way and is an excellent choice for a quick cruising boat...in my opinion.
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Old 28-03-2014, 14:28   #187
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A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Cheechako, I have a Caliber 40 and pounding on the bow from the inside requires you to be in the shower stall or the head, and neither of which shake the tiniest bit...

Just sayin', I also remember you stating that Caliber 40's had a V berth a while ago. Not sure you have the right boat.

On top of this, I've had a Hunter 35 Legend with a 6'6" fin keel with spade rudder, and now the Caliber 40 with a 5'1" modified fin keel and skeg rudder. The Caliber is also much heavier, a completely different kind of boat. I loved the way the Hunter sailed; she was quick in light winds, and was a blast. I would have probably felt comfortable doing extended cruising on her. I have only had the Caliber for a week and have not sailed her much yet, so I can't attest to the difference in keel types, but the heavier boat definitely feels more comfortable. The Caliber feels absolutely rock solid compared to the Hunter, however I'm sure it won't be as fun to sail. I bought this boat to use exactly as it's named though- long distance cruising. I have the tankage to go very long distances, very comfortably. The underside of the Caliber 40 is somewhat similar to the Valiant 40, without the canoe stern, which I love.

As many have said, I'm sure you will find the right boat for your needs. I know I have!
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Old 28-03-2014, 14:39   #188
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by oregonian View Post
Ahoy Mpricer, I hope you’re still listening. I have decided to voice my opinion simply because I believe much of what has been said is erroneous. IN MY OPINION. I will blame those errors on lack of ocean sailing experience by the perpetrators.
My opinions are based on 160,000+ nm sailed as a delivery skipper on many of the boats mentioned on this thread. Yes, this experience has imbedded “preferences” with me. Most of my experience is “to weather” because I have been hired to take the boat back home.
For a cruising boat up to about 43’, I prefer a full keel, and heavy displacement. As the length goes down, the preference goes up. Much is said about boat speed. I will state that there is no speed advantage to a fin keeled, lighter, boat under about 40’ when that boat is fully loaded - or over loaded - for cruising. There is usually a speed disadvantage. It can not carry the load as efficiently as a boat that was designed heavier in the first place.
Much is said about the poor light air performance of the heavy full keeled boat. JimCate said “boats with long keels and heavy displacement have more wetted area than lighter, fin keeled vessels of similar size…and that, as any NA will tell you, is a big disadvantage in light air” I say “that is not true” A heavy boat can sail just as well as a light boat in light airs if the crew, and boat are fully prepared and willing to do so. Yes, it does take a little more work and sail area. The heavy boat has momentum going for it. Do not down play this advantage. One small example occurred in the 2010 singlehanded transpac when a Westsail-32 passed a Valiant 40, Olson 34, and Martin 32, during the most extreme light airs of the race. And please remember this: Yes, a full keeled boat has more total wetted area, but the fin keeled boat may have more wetted frontal area., as it will have the keel and skeg/rudder. Which is more detrimental? Also, the full keeler will be going straighter, ie, less yawing, thus less rudder motion, thus less rudder drag. The biggest difference in boat speed in light air is brought about by the crew.
Little has been said about motion comfort. The lighter, fin keeled boat WILL pound more than the heavier boat. I have delivered 3 different Perry designed 44 footers totaling over 4000 miles. All were called performance cruisers. None of them were bad boats but they all were slow and all pounded. They were slow because they were over loaded and heavy, but their hulls still had flat sections forward, that came out of the water at times and pounded back in. I can name many more boats in this category
Schewaburyduo said “does anyone have opinions of the Passport 40?” Yes, I do. It is a nice boat and you probably would not go wrong with one, BUT, don’t think you will be going very fast if the boat is loaded. It won’t happen. How fast is it? In one of the Pacific transpacs it beat a Westsail-32 by 19 minutes, after 14 days of racing. Is that fast?
This is just one story. I have told this one before and was slammed for it: On a delivery return from Hawaii on a J-46 the four of us in the crew (all were veteran ocean sailors) had to slow the boat down and fall off because we were pounding so bad that we simply couldn’t take it anymore. By doing this, our new VMG (velocity made good) was now worse than a Westsail-42/43 would have been. The Westsail literally would have been the faster boat home, and never would have pounded. (I have owned a Westsail-42)
There is much more I could say. Suffice it to say that I prefer the full keeled boat under about 43’ because I have sailed most of the alternatives.
Thanks for this. You did a much more thorough job of making some of my earlier points.
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Old 28-03-2014, 16:50   #189
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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JimCate, and anyone interested, Let me make myself more clear. In my previous post, I stated very clearly that what I say is “IN MY OPINION”, and that I have “preferences” based on my experience. I, in no way was giving a “definitive condemnation” of fin keeled boats, as you said. The OP had asked for opinions. I have sailed for more fin keeled boats than full keeled boats. FOR CRUISING I prefer the full keel heavy displacement boat.
The cross section measurement of the keel is far more detrimental to speed than the horizontal length of the keel. A submerged 1x6 that is 6’ long has the same wetted surface no matter how you measure it. But, try dragging that board broad side through the water versus dragging it on edge. The full keel has one leading edge. The fin keel has two plus, usually a strut. All of this leading edge will often negate the wetted surface measurement. It is this concept that I was referring to when I used the term “wetted frontal area”.
goboatingnow, (regarding full keeled boats), you say, “If that were the case all club racers would be full keel”. No, that is not what I am implying. All of my references were to fully loaded cruising boats, or very long distance races whereby any boat participating is going to be well loaded down. Most lighter weight, fin keeled boats are faster around the buoys than most full keelers. I know this as well as you. The PHRF ratings indicate this. These ratings are based on “empty boats”. What I am saying is that when that very same fin keeled boat is fully loaded, or over loaded, it will be slower than the boat that was designed heavier in the first place. A small to medium sized boat, when cruising or as a live aboard, can easily be 60 seconds per mile slower than it’s PHRF rating. I, in no way, am “dissing” fin keeled boats.
As stated to the OP: for cruising and/or live-aboarding, I much prefer the full keel heavy displacement boat for boats under about 43 feet.
Thankyou
Oregonian, I don't want to get into a pissing match here, but when you said "that is not true" in response to my words on the effect of wetted area, it seemed like more than "in my opinion".

Now, let us look at your thought experiment with the 1x6 plank. I suggest that a better experiment to simulate the difference between a full and a fin/skeg hull shape would be: for the fin keel, drag two planks with the narrow edge into the stream and add the drag forces. For the full keel, drag one plank with the broad side into the stream. Then compare the two total drag values. I think this better imitates the difference between two narrow and hydrodynamically clean "leading edges" and the fuller (and much longer) shape of a traditional full keel hull.

At any rate, I can see that your opinions are well set and based on your experiences. So are mine, with the addition of some consideration for the theoretical inputs from the professionals in boat design.

My experience from a lot of years and miles of active cruising is that our boats (fin keel, moderate displacement vessels all) have performed better in light airs than the full keel vessels of similar size with which we have sailed in company. We've all been cruising, so I guess we must be "loaded for cruising" or overloaded if you wish.

I don't know if that statement is "dissing" full keel boats or not... I view it as reality. YMMV.

Jim
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Old 28-03-2014, 17:48   #190
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I'll run this one up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes;
~30 feet and under, full or modified keel
~40 feet and over, fin and spade or fin and skeg
30 to 40 let's all argue.
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Old 28-03-2014, 18:22   #191
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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I'll run this one up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes;
~30 feet and under, full or modified keel
~40 feet and over, fin and spade or fin and skeg
30 to 40 let's all argue.
Since we haven't found anything we can imagine living on less than 35 and would like to keep it under 40, ARGUE IT IS!
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Old 28-03-2014, 18:41   #192
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Randy,
I don't include the Benni 1st 42 as a light weight because it isn't. Your boat makes a wonderful cruising boat, it's built the old fashion way and is an excellent choice for a quick cruising boat...in my opinion.

Glad you feel that way, and thanks, which brings up a good point..
For those that don't know, the underside is much like the picture of JIM'S boat, a fin keel, and stated to weigh at around 9 ton but mine comes in a little heaver at 12 due to it being an "owners" version..
So some are dissing the fin keel, and putting it into the ultra light class when the fact is, many fin keel boats fall into the mid weight class and are perfect for cruising..
Not trying to sell anyone on the FIRST 42 as said before but there are many mid weight performance ocean racers/ cruisers to be had if you look hard enough.
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Old 28-03-2014, 18:43   #193
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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At any rate, I can see that your opinions are well set and based on your experiences. So are mine, with the addition of some consideration for the theoretical inputs from the professionals in boat design.



Jim
Do you really read textbooks about yacht design to determine whether or not you are having a good time on the water?
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Old 28-03-2014, 20:02   #194
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Do you really read textbooks about yacht design to determine whether or not you are having a good time on the water?
This isn't about fun on the water. All boats are fun.

This is about CF bragging rights. No cruiser wants to hear that their boat is the wrong choice for cruising.

So the full keel vs the fin keel debate will continue as long as people have both of these boats.
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Old 28-03-2014, 20:51   #195
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Screw the keels. If its not beachable, its a truck camper.

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