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Old 27-03-2014, 16:48   #151
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
If we return to the original post to refresh our memories of what started this now long thread, we find no statement of the experience Mprice and his good lady have.

I suggest that the sailors' tastes for a good performing boat influenced Jim & me because we like "going fast" and Jim has both a background in physics and singlehanded racing. The OP doesn't. Since he is a newbie, and will be learning as he goes in any event, I think if he buys a boat (in the price range, etc.) that makes his heart go pitty-pat, he'll enjoy it.

It doesn't have to be our cup of tea, and he won't really mind that it takes a longer time to tack it than a fin keel, or that it may not back up predictably, or be difficult to maneuver in a marina because turning a full keel, it has to push a lot of water out of the way. He'll love it because it invoked "boat lust."

He'll learn to sail it however he sails it. Honestly, among cruisers, they range from people who care about sail trim to people who mainly ignore it. If he buys within his budget and wants later on to change boats, he can do that, too. Whatever he gets, it should be what he and his good lady want.

Ann
Nice post Ann. I find what makes the sail trim work best going to weather is the iron reacher. When that's used the slot and telltales look perfect!
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Old 27-03-2014, 16:55   #152
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by Schrewsburyduo View Post
This is a very interesting thread. My question-- be useful to the original poster - does anyone have opinions of the Passport 40? Seems like a very up nice compromise-- great build quality but not too heavy. I have been on one and was impressed. I Know some captains and racing sailors who chose this as their cruising boat. I'm curious if anyone here has good experiences with it or useful opinions. Also similarly any opinions about caliber yachts, similarly sized 30-40?

If I had a dream situation such as time in retirement, enough $$ to do this properly, I would dream of the passport 40.
I think the Passport 40s are pretty darn nice boats. A great evolution from the Valiant 40 with a less traditional sparse interior that the Valiant has. I've not owned a 40 but did own a 47. It was not my favorite boat but was good. Mine had some issues like in mast furling and a waterlogged hull... so not the best performer... but it should have been by the lines and numbers. The early Passports built by Ta Shing were superb. I think about '89 or 90 (?) they moved to a differnt builder, probably for cost. I looked closely at about a... '91 ... I think... when I bought the 47 ft....and didnt feel it was as good as the Ta Shing. I imagine the first couple of years with a new builder takes some time to establish what you want. Still... probably better than many.
I evaluated a new Caliber 40 for a friend (about 10 years ago). I thought it was a good boat but not near the Passport in quality or strength. JMHO.
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Old 27-03-2014, 17:53   #153
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Ann, I always enjoy your posts and your no nonsense wisdom. If it wasn't for boat lust I suspect none of us would be doing this. Lots of happy cruisers in lots of boat types. Whatever floats your boat.


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Old 27-03-2014, 17:53   #154
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Nice response, Ann.

SaltyMonkey....get in line behind me. By the same token, a free Pacific Seacraft or Bristol Channel Cutter would be equally appreciated.
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Old 27-03-2014, 20:52   #155
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

http://www.sunstonesailing.com/rnz/rnzb.html

This is an interesting read. A 1960's boat short-handed racing round NZ in 2012 with some success in rough weather with strong gales up to 55knots. Some boats, or is it the crew, do better than others when the going gets tough.
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Old 27-03-2014, 22:18   #156
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Hi it's me the OP...First I would like to say thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. The information contained within will be invaluable as I continue my journey. Thanks for the candid responses and to those of you who provided links, sites and articles to review a big BZ.

I can see by the passion in which each participant contributes that you are all very serious about your boats and the lifestyle that sailing brings. I can assure you that I have taken stock of each and every comment.

In fairness, I must tell you that my wife and I, while experienced and exceptionally accomplished mariners with nearly 60 years of at sea experience between us, neither of us have more than a rudimentary understanding of sail. We fully intend to spend the next few years getting to know whatever boat we buy and learning from professionals everything we can about sailing before we expose ourselves to any significant risk.

I spent nearly 30 years driving ships, that's driving not steering I wasn't a helmsmen, I have driven every thing from a 70' yard patrol craft to an aircraft carrier and everything in between. My first two ships had teak decks if you can believe it. They were old Korean war era Mine Sweeps (MSO), so I fully understand the rigors of sea duty as does my wife. I think we are completely prepared for the lifestyle. We just need to get off top dead center, find a boat and begin the process.

You all have helped make the process much easier. Again, thanks for all you comments and information. Please feel free to continue to post as I will continue reading each and everyone.

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Old 27-03-2014, 23:48   #157
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Ahoy Mpricer, I hope you’re still listening. I have decided to voice my opinion simply because I believe much of what has been said is erroneous. IN MY OPINION. I will blame those errors on lack of ocean sailing experience by the perpetrators.
My opinions are based on 160,000+ nm sailed as a delivery skipper on many of the boats mentioned on this thread. Yes, this experience has imbedded “preferences” with me. Most of my experience is “to weather” because I have been hired to take the boat back home.
For a cruising boat up to about 43’, I prefer a full keel, and heavy displacement. As the length goes down, the preference goes up. Much is said about boat speed. I will state that there is no speed advantage to a fin keeled, lighter, boat under about 40’ when that boat is fully loaded - or over loaded - for cruising. There is usually a speed disadvantage. It can not carry the load as efficiently as a boat that was designed heavier in the first place.
Much is said about the poor light air performance of the heavy full keeled boat. JimCate said “boats with long keels and heavy displacement have more wetted area than lighter, fin keeled vessels of similar size…and that, as any NA will tell you, is a big disadvantage in light air” I say “that is not true” A heavy boat can sail just as well as a light boat in light airs if the crew, and boat are fully prepared and willing to do so. Yes, it does take a little more work and sail area. The heavy boat has momentum going for it. Do not down play this advantage. One small example occurred in the 2010 singlehanded transpac when a Westsail-32 passed a Valiant 40, Olson 34, and Martin 32, during the most extreme light airs of the race. And please remember this: Yes, a full keeled boat has more total wetted area, but the fin keeled boat may have more wetted frontal area., as it will have the keel and skeg/rudder. Which is more detrimental? Also, the full keeler will be going straighter, ie, less yawing, thus less rudder motion, thus less rudder drag. The biggest difference in boat speed in light air is brought about by the crew.
Little has been said about motion comfort. The lighter, fin keeled boat WILL pound more than the heavier boat. I have delivered 3 different Perry designed 44 footers totaling over 4000 miles. All were called performance cruisers. None of them were bad boats but they all were slow and all pounded. They were slow because they were over loaded and heavy, but their hulls still had flat sections forward, that came out of the water at times and pounded back in. I can name many more boats in this category
Schewaburyduo said “does anyone have opinions of the Passport 40?” Yes, I do. It is a nice boat and you probably would not go wrong with one, BUT, don’t think you will be going very fast if the boat is loaded. It won’t happen. How fast is it? In one of the Pacific transpacs it beat a Westsail-32 by 19 minutes, after 14 days of racing. Is that fast?
This is just one story. I have told this one before and was slammed for it: On a delivery return from Hawaii on a J-46 the four of us in the crew (all were veteran ocean sailors) had to slow the boat down and fall off because we were pounding so bad that we simply couldn’t take it anymore. By doing this, our new VMG (velocity made good) was now worse than a Westsail-42/43 would have been. The Westsail literally would have been the faster boat home, and never would have pounded. (I have owned a Westsail-42)
There is much more I could say. Suffice it to say that I prefer the full keeled boat under about 43’ because I have sailed most of the alternatives.
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Old 27-03-2014, 23:56   #158
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Mprice,

Thanks for the fill on your background. So you're a skilled waterman--in behemoths. Great! Go sail dinghies (little, safe dinghies, not 505's or Stars) for 6 weeks, so as to get a feel for what is possible with sail, without involving an engine, and it can open up a new vision of what you might like to do..... if that appeals to you. It'll be wet, and perhaps feel clumsy at first, but then, you might find it fun! If your wife will do it, too, you guys could really have a gas! However, it will be a wet experience.

We've had a couple of admirals, retired, sail on our boats. It can be the very devil to get them to turn loose of the helm! but they seemed to have a very good time.

Then sail 3 each full keel boats that you like and 3 fin keel boats that you like. To be fair, you have to dock them all. And after all that testing and feeling, make your choices, and I'll betcha it works out just fine.

Ann
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Old 28-03-2014, 00:00   #159
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
OK, so like, I just gotta say, if anyone who has a Jeanneau or Benneteau and is ascared of their keel and rudder fallen' off because of what they read here, and wants to give it to me, I will take it off their hands for FREE.
Ah, M'sieur Salty,

You are so very kind!

Ann
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Old 28-03-2014, 00:17   #160
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Mprice,

Thanks for the fill on your background. So you're a skilled waterman--in behemoths. Great! Go sail dinghies (little, safe dinghies, not 505's or Stars) for 6 weeks, so as to get a feel for what is possible with sail, without involving an engine, and it can open up a new vision of what you might like to do..... if that appeals to you. It'll be wet, and perhaps feel clumsy at first, but then, you might find it fun! If your wife will do it, too, you guys could really have a gas! However, it will be a wet experience.

We've had a couple of admirals, retired, sail on our boats. It can be the very devil to get them to turn loose of the helm! but they seemed to have a very good time.

Then sail 3 each full keel boats that you like and 3 fin keel boats that you like. To be fair, you have to dock them all. And after all that testing and feeling, make your choices, and I'll betcha it works out just fine.

Ann
Thanks a bunch Ann, that's precisely the plan, we have both sailed a little, my wife is a big sunfish fan, she loves them. I've been in some small keel boats here and there. But we are looking forward to spending the entire summer this year just sailing and having fun. I'll post again when we make our big purchase to let everyone know what we decided. Again, thanks for your input and insight.

Mark
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Old 28-03-2014, 00:24   #161
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I like the suggestion to sail some dinghy's. Something like a Lido 14, perhaps. I had so much fun sailing a Santana 20; only paid $1350 for it! It sailed so well I never ran the motor. It would be money well spent to take sailing lessons and work toward a chartering accreditation. Maybe join a sailing club.
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Old 28-03-2014, 00:44   #162
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

[QUOTE=oregonian;1503710][FONT=Times New Roman]Ahoy Mpricer,
Much is said about the poor light air performance of the heavy full keeled boat. JimCate said “boats with long keels and heavy displacement have more wetted area than lighter, fin keeled vessels of similar size…and that, as any NA will tell you, is a big disadvantage in light air” I say “that is not true” A heavy boat can sail just as well as a light boat in light airs if the crew, and boat are fully prepared and willing to do so. Yes, it does take a little more work and sail area. The heavy boat has momentum going for it. Do not down play this advantage. One small example occurred in the 2010 singlehanded transpac when a Westsail-32 passed a Valiant 40, Olson 34, and Martin 32, during the most extreme light airs of the race. And please remember this: Yes, a full keeled boat has more total wetted area, but the fin keeled boat may have more wetted frontal area., as it will have the keel and skeg/rudder. Which is more detrimental? Also, the full keeler will be going straighter, ie, less yawing, thus less rudder motion, thus less rudder drag. The biggest difference in boat speed in light air is brought about by the crew.


This post has so many unsupported opinions that it is hard to know where to start. And you are entitled to your opinions.

I will only say that proposing that a heavy boat, given more sail area and better crew work might go better than a lighter fin keeler with an inattentive crew and inadequate sail area is true but hardly a definitive condemnation of the lighter boat. Lets be comparing apples with apples here.

And this new concept of "wetted frontal area"... haven't seen that mentioned in the design textbooks. Perhaps you should offer a paper at a naval architecture meeting for I'm sure that they would be interested. Generally they seem pretty convinced that in light airs the major contributor to drag is skin friction. Your statement "that is not true" needs some support beyond what you offer if I am to change my beliefs.

You have likely sailed more varied designs than I have, but I suspect that I have sailed more miles as a cruiser than you have. They have all been in fin keeled boats. I like to sail in light conditions and do so frequently. I have not seen many heavy/full keel vessels of ANY size passing me... except when they were motoring. The example of the 2010 singlehanded transpac, while interesting does not define the conditions well. When you say "passed", do you mean really sailing past the subject boats near enough that they were in the same exact conditions? Or do you mean that at roll call time the W-32 had gained on the other three boats and gotten closer to the finish? Somewhere on the racecourse?

In the long run, one chooses a boat that most nearly meets their requirements and budget. Your choice was a Westsail 42. That's fine with me, and I'm glad that you found her to be a good match for your desires. But that's about as far as I can go in agreeing with your advice to the OP.


And then, free advice is worth what you pay for it... mine of yours!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 28-03-2014, 01:25   #163
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

As I noted earlier - The OP should buy what he thinks is best (loves), He does need to make sure he is deciding on the right set of priorities.

Passagemaking, unless he is going RTW solo unassisted, will not be more than 10-15% of his sailing life. Which means passagemaking should probably not be the nr. 1 criteria when choosing a boat. In addition, few passages are longer than 4 weeks, so I'd certainly choose my boat based on livability and comfort when coastal sailing, living on the hook or in a marina.

Full keel or fin? Spade rudder or skeg-protected? To each his own, but boat designs move forward. there is probably a good reason (aside from cost) why virtually no one is building full keel boats anymore.

If the keels and rudders were prone to falling off then the insurance companies would have stuck a premium on these design a long time ago - they haven't.

Personally, I sail in the Baltic and at times in the north sea. Lat 55/56/57 which most would agree constitutes High Lat sailing. I haven't found my boat to "pound" excessively, even in 50+ knot winds and the very short and steep waves encountered in the Baltic.

I've never worried about the keel or rudder falling off.

Take a look at this video of Dehler 31 being crashed at full speed into a variety of obstructions. Gee, the keel didn't fall off?



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Old 28-03-2014, 01:47   #164
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Unbelievable Video.
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Old 28-03-2014, 07:11   #165
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

No, I'd like it to go over something submerged at say 5 feet and see how the lower keel and rudder would fair. All bow shots unless I missed something.
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