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Old 30-08-2016, 13:17   #31
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Originally Posted by 30yearslater View Post
CharlzO, what the heck are you doing here. It's me Joe from Meetup.
I've been kicking around for a while, just don't always post a lot. I'm in Fair Haven for this year, but put my little 26' up for sale. I will say though, she handled a few windy days just fine, and that was only a taste of what I've seen up there, both on the marina's camera, and other people videoing and discussing. It really can sneak up on you, that's for sure. Last year, I was coming back from a sail to Sackets Harbor, and went from no wind at ALL halfway back, to having an hour or so of beautiful 5-6k sailing, and then in the course of about ten minutes, jumping to 4-6' swells and 30k gusts that I had to try to motor through to get the last 2 miles back into the marina. Never saw it coming, and if memory serves, the forecast never called it either.

Glad to hear you like your O 27, my brother has a 23 that he's looking to upgrade but he loves the sailing characteristics. Sounds like the 27 is very similar.
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Old 30-08-2016, 14:31   #32
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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I've been kicking around for a while, just don't always post a lot. I'm in Fair Haven for this year, but put my little 26' up for sale. I will say though, she handled a few windy days just fine, and that was only a taste of what I've seen up there, both on the marina's camera, and other people videoing and discussing. It really can sneak up on you, that's for sure. Last year, I was coming back from a sail to Sackets Harbor, and went from no wind at ALL halfway back, to having an hour or so of beautiful 5-6k sailing, and then in the course of about ten minutes, jumping to 4-6' swells and 30k gusts that I had to try to motor through to get the last 2 miles back into the marina. Never saw it coming, and if memory serves, the forecast never called it either.

Glad to hear you like your O 27, my brother has a 23 that he's looking to upgrade but he loves the sailing characteristics. Sounds like the 27 is very similar.
I would assume you will purchase another boat when you sell yours. We have got to get together. I don't know if I will make it up east this year but next year I want to explore the islands up that way and Fair Haven. Like you say the lake can go from beautiful to snarling in a matter of minutes. Of course then we get to deal with the amplitude of the ricochet when the waves hit shore and bounce back out to create the cross hatch pattern that is loads of fun to deal with. That is also something i have noticed with the Salties and their bulbous bows throwing a cross pattern to the prevailing waves. My 27 doesn't like to heave to which is a pain. Silly thing will go in circles no problem but doesn't settle into one direction. I will keep trying and maybe I will find the sweet spot someday. Good to hear from you Charlz.
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Old 31-08-2016, 09:40   #33
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Great discussion here, timely as I'm buying my first boat and taking it on my first big cruise to get it home this weekend. I'm watching the weather nervously, knowing how weather can be in Michigan, this conversation makes me even more watchful. I'll ride with a captain I've hired for legality and to pick his brains, as we go through Georgian Bay and across to Alpena. Then I trade the captain for my family in Alpena, and we drive around Michigan to Holland.


I grew up working and playing on boats, never navigated any significant distance, this will be a first. I know enough to very cautious about all the rocks and shallows, those terrify me just a bit. And if there is weather, I'll be tied to a dock, I'm not messing with the kind of waves I know can build quickly here.


The boat is a 40' Cruisers 375. It is big enough to handle some pretty good weather, and fast enough I shouldn't have to unless I'm not watching the weather at all.
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Old 31-08-2016, 11:37   #34
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Great discussion here, timely as I'm buying my first boat and taking it on my first big cruise to get it home this weekend. I'm watching the weather nervously, knowing how weather can be in Michigan, this conversation makes me even more watchful. I'll ride with a captain I've hired for legality and to pick his brains, as we go through Georgian Bay and across to Alpena. Then I trade the captain for my family in Alpena, and we drive around Michigan to Holland.


I grew up working and playing on boats, never navigated any significant distance, this will be a first. I know enough to very cautious about all the rocks and shallows, those terrify me just a bit. And if there is weather, I'll be tied to a dock, I'm not messing with the kind of waves I know can build quickly here.


The boat is a 40' Cruisers 375. It is big enough to handle some pretty good weather, and fast enough I shouldn't have to unless I'm not watching the weather at all.
The weather is suppose to be just great this weekend. I will be sailing in Georgian Bay near Midland if you are in the area and want to meet up. I don't expect any bad weather.
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Old 31-08-2016, 11:47   #35
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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The weather is suppose to be just great this weekend. I will be sailing in Georgian Bay near Midland if you are in the area and want to meet up. I don't expect any bad weather.
I'm hoping we will set out at first light, and hold 25 knots to Tobermory, then across to Alpena. My family hasn't seen the boat, and if we get the paperwork done quickly we might make the Straits by evening. If you're out there I'll try not to disturb your peaceful sail!
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Old 01-09-2016, 19:41   #36
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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I think others on this Forum have responded very well to many of Delancey's questionable assertations--the grossest being 20K miles in 12 years on the Great Lakes. For those of us who have sailed in these waters, we all know ,too well, that to average 1700 miles in a 4 month season over a period of 12 years is difficult to believe--even if you were a dedicated racer. Did you not work during the Summer for 12 years? Did you live aboard and sail continuously? Did you never have any breakdowns or repairs that disabled your boat for periods at a time or was it a continuously sailing machine? Was the weather perfect every day and you never had to "wait for weather?" This is quite a remarkable claim.
Dear Mr. Rongvald,

Since you describe the sailing season on the Great Lakes as being only four months long I imagine you to be a fair weather sailor who might only get out a couple times a month in the summertime and can therefore understand you doubting my claim.

During the aforementioned period, where I sailed on anything and everything from 14' Lasers up to the 180' tall ship The Rose, club racing started with a spring frostbite series that began the second week of April and concluded with a fall frostbite series that ran through the end of September but I have sailed on all five of the Great Lakes as late as October and in all kinds of weather conditions, having been hit by lightning, seen St Elmo's Fire, been snowed on, and seen winds in excess of 70 knots.

For me a typical sailing season at the time included the following as a minimum-

Club racing (10hrs per week x 4 knots average boat speed x 20 weeks) - 800 miles.
Chicago to Mackinaw Race round trip 666 miles.
Queens Cup Race round trip 180 miles.
Chicago NOOD Regatta delivery round trip 150 miles.

Typical racing season total 1,796 miles.

Of course that total doesn't include paid deliveries, booze cruises, or sailing just for fun. During this period I did as many paid deliveries as came my way and the most sailing I did in a single season that I can recall specifically included the following.

Milwaukee to Charlevoix - 190 miles.
Chicago to Port Washington - 100 miles.
Detroit to Chicago - 600 miles.
Chicago to Erie - 770 miles.
Racing - 1,796 miles.

Season total - 3,456 miles.

Regards,
Delancey
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Old 02-09-2016, 01:18   #37
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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I think others on this Forum have responded very well to many of Delancey's questionable assertations--the grossest being 20K miles in 12 years on the Great Lakes.
Mate, I not only don't see any issues with this claim, I see your accusations as being close to libelous.

Just because you, as a weekend or vacation sailor can't imagine sailing all those miles does not mean that a pro sailor would not do so.

I do not know Delancy, but I know a lot of folks who sail lots of miles, both pros and amateurs. Sheesh, even Ann and I, doddering old farts that we are average over 3000 miles a year, and have done so for three decades now.

I reckon you owe him an apology...

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Old 02-09-2016, 03:09   #38
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Peace, my brothers. I think Rognvald is really just saying that the Great Lakes can produce some very challenging sea conditions, and is not "just a lake". This of course is true. Confused seas, square waves, and violent and unpredictable land-influenced weather events, add up to very serious challenges for sailors.

But I don't think he ever said it was the same as big ocean conditions resulting from long-duration storms acting over thousands of miles of fetch, storm winds against tide, and the other challenges we get in the ocean.

Arguing about it is silly. There's enough challenge and enough danger, for any sailor, in any decent sized body of water.
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Old 02-09-2016, 04:25   #39
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

One thing I learned early on as I entered this newfangled world of communicating in the tech world: You can never win an argument on the Net. It can literally go on and on forever. Dockhead has it right, "Arguing about it is silly."
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Old 02-09-2016, 05:42   #40
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Having spent the better part of my 71yrs sailing in clear ocean salt water, I ever appreciated the 1/10 mile counter on the log until I sailed Georgian Bay and the bigger water. 600 ft to 6 ft depth change in 1 boat length requires close attention by the Navi-guesser.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:53   #41
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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For those of us who have experienced the Great Lakes in comparison to ocean sailing, we know the seriousness of sailing in these waters.
Actually, Mr. Rongvald is attempting to compare the Great Lakes to ocean. He does so very clearly in his initial post.

Don't give him a pass saying he is trying to say something he is not. Whether this comes from some sense of geographical inadequacy or something else I can't say.

As far as arguing about it, what's there to argue about? There is no comparison.

Here is a photo of a giant wave smashing into Cornwall in winter time. About as relevant to the subject of cruising as discussed on this forum as the photos posted by the OP.

Not relevant at all.
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:27   #42
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Having spent the better part of my 71yrs sailing in clear ocean salt water, I ever appreciated the 1/10 mile counter on the log until I sailed Georgian Bay and the bigger water. 600 ft to 6 ft depth change in 1 boat length requires close attention by the Navi-guesser.
IN fresh water which means your displacement was lower.
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Old 02-09-2016, 09:09   #43
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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IN fresh water which means your displacement was lower.
Displacement doesn't change. But since fresh water is less dense than sea water, your draft does increase. Because the boat has to sink down lower to displace the same mass of the less dense fresh water.
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Old 02-09-2016, 09:13   #44
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Displacement doesn't change. But since fresh water is less dense than sea water, your draft does increase. Because the boat has to sink down lower to displace the same mass of the less dense fresh water.
Yes your displacement of water decreases which is what i said...
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Old 02-09-2016, 09:29   #45
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

"Season total - 3,456 miles." Delancey


Well, apologies are certainly in order, Delancey, since your initial claim of 20K miles in 12 years doesn't even scratch the surface of your intense sailing resume. Now, based on your newly revised miles sailed per year, you have actually sailed 41,472 miles in 12 years--a number that certainly qualifies for some sort of record and/or reward for the History of Great Lakes sailing. Perhaps after a few more posts, the number will continue to grow exponentially and we will include ice boat racing during the Winter months over the broken and jagged ice jams that clog the border of the lake. Who knows how high the number will eventually become?
Finally, in regards to Jim Cate's response to my sailing history, I can only admire a person's ability to intimately know a stranger's life in detail with no personal contact or information other than an internet presence. A reasonable person would certainly have a problem with this mentality. But, I suppose this is one of the drawbacks to an anonymous internet Forum.
For the Great Lakes sailors among us or those who have experience sailing the Great Lakes, many of these statements will be seen in a different light based upon their own sailing past including those who are hard core racers. As always, it is an interesting journey and an education to flesh out these, sometimes, controversial topics. Good luck and safe sailing. Captain Rognvald--harmless weekend and vacation daysailor.
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