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Old 29-08-2016, 22:00   #16
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Delancey

I do not know Rognvald but he or she may have more sea and Lake miles under their belt then you.

I would like to add my little nugget of wisdom for us all.

Never assume anything about anyone or anywhere.
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Old 30-08-2016, 05:13   #17
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Delancey

I do not know Rognvald but he or she may have more sea and Lake miles under their belt then you.

I would like to add my little nugget of wisdom for us all.

Never assume anything about anyone or anywhere.
One and sometimes two Mac races, Queens Cup, NOOD regattas, other class specific events, feeder deliveries for all those events, plus professional deliveries, and throw in racing around the bouys a minimum of two days a week. I'll let you add it up although I will give that the time frame is a little longer than a dozen years since I was three years old the first time we sailed to the Apostle Islands. Not hard to average those miles when you are eighteen and all your job is to sail rich guy's boats around.

I don't know Rognvald either but would be happy to buy him a drink sometime, I am sure he is a great guy.

That said, I would be surprised to learn that anybody who makes the argument that waves are much steeper on the Great Lakes had ever been in a wind-against-current situation. That's the thing isn't it? The lakes don't have currents do they? Seiches are little more than waves in a bathtubs sloshing around. Current in the rivers don't count because they are on the rivers.

I think the thing to do is to love and embrace the Great Lakes for what they are, not try to make them be something they simply are not.
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Old 30-08-2016, 06:06   #18
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Wind and weather conditions on the Great Lakes may create a seiche, an oscillating wave which can be several feet high. In many of the Great Lakes, the time period between the “high” and “low” of a seiche may be between four and seven hours. As this is very similar to the six-hour time period of the tides on the ocean, it is frequently mistaken for a tide.
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Old 30-08-2016, 06:24   #19
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Arguing about whether Great Lakes or open ocean is more dangerous is like arguing whether rattlesnakes or water moccasins are more dangerous.

I weathered a storm off GBR in which a boat bound for Noumea disappeared. Despite the main tearing, I didn't find it to be that bad, certainly not as dangerous as some GL storms I've been in.

And I've weathered cyclones on Tarawa and Viti Levu, which are so powerful as to be rarely equaled on GL. In both cases, there are seasons when one "shouldn't be sailing." That would be cyclone season in the Pacific, or October/November in the GL. Of course some do, and the results are recorded history. The fact that GL doesn't experience five-day blows is not a valid differentiator, as GL have their own dangers that open ocean does have- running out of room is probably top on that list.

GL brought the White Storm of 1913, which sank many big ships- a feat unequaled by any ocean, even the cyclone before the battle of Leyte Gulf.

And, while one could argue that the 2016 breach of Crescent Beach on Sodus (Lake Ontario) was outside the proper sailing season, certainly the July 4th storm of the last century that destroyed the Little Sodus (Fairhaven) pier wasn't. Nor was the 1998 storm that dismasted three sailboats at anchor in Sodus Bay. And the squall that hit St. Lawrence River about that same year may have only lasted two hours, but it was sufficient to throw a half dozen cruising boats on the rocks on Camelot Island alone.

The Wikipedia list of GL shipwrecks should suffice to demonstrate that the GL need every bit of respect equal to the open ocean.
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:12   #20
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

I think others on this Forum have responded very well to many of Delancey's questionable assertations--the grossest being 20K miles in 12 years on the Great Lakes. For those of us who have sailed in these waters, we all know ,too well, that to average 1700 miles in a 4 month season over a period of 12 years is difficult to believe--even if you were a dedicated racer. Did you not work during the Summer for 12 years? Did you live aboard and sail continuously? Did you never have any breakdowns or repairs that disabled your boat for periods at a time or was it a continuously sailing machine? Was the weather perfect every day and you never had to "wait for weather?" This is quite a remarkable claim.
Secondly, since you have made assertations about me and my life that you could not possibly know, let me state a few facts:
1. Although I have considerable experience sailing the Great Lakes, the majority of my 18,000 log-documented sea miles were in Florida, the Bahamas and the Caribbean. So, when comparing ocean sailing versus sailing the Great Lakes, I speak from first-hand experience.
2. During the accumulation of these sea miles(with the exception of the Great Lakes), we lived aboard in the Tropics for ten years as we pursued our sailing dreams.
3. When we accumulated these sea miles, they were on our Pearson 34-II which we maintained ourselves and still own today.
So when you erroneously state " Maybe if you ever have a chance to get out there you will see for yourself there is really no comparison," is not only false, based upon my past, but patently absurd. You could have found this out easily by reading my personal bio. And, I have never stated that ocean sailing was not challenging and, at times, frightening, but if I had to choose between sailing in high wind/storm conditions at sea or in the volatile and shallow seas of the Great Lakes, I would choose ocean sailing every time.
So, when we contribute to Forums, we must keep in mind that we can only judge a person by his words and cannot possibly know a person's accomplishments, talents, or past. It is patently foolish and arrogant for anyone to adopt this stance. However, when claims are made similar to your 20K miles in 12 years on the Great Lakes, a reasonable person would certainly question its validity.
In conclusion, there have been some that make the claim that there are no currents in the Great Lakes. This is incorrect since there are both surface and bottom currents that have the potential to effect your course over the water and the condition of the sea state. Being a racer, you should know that many racers use these currents to their benefit when speeds of 1/4-1/2 knot can be the difference between winning and losing. On a recent 55 mile sail to Port Washington, Wisconsin in very lumpy offshore conditions, we experienced a stretch of almost ten miles where our wind/current drift was 1-1 1/2 miles per hour. We have consistently experienced 3/4 to 1 knot drift per hour as a rule when cruising in less than perfect conditions. To ignore these currents would be poor seamanship and dangerous. Follows is NOAA'S link to Great Lakes Currents.
Good luck and safe sailing.

www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/.../currents/
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:26   #21
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Having sailed Lake Superior for over a decade I'm always amused when people bring up Stan Roger's most popular song, Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald. It's actually one of his worst songs, but that's a different argument . I regularly sailed right over the Fitz's wreck. Always had me humming, and although not a religious man, saying a small prayer to the water dogs.

I won't fight about who's neighbourhood is tougher, but I will say that one of the things that makes the Lakes so challenging is the weather. Continental weather patterns are far more complex, and less predictable than ocean weather. Storms will rarely rage for more than a couple of days (although two seasons ago while sailing to Lake Ontario I was caught in two separate week-long gales). And it's true the fetches, therefore the wave sizes, cannot be as large. But they are always more tightly packed, steeper and denser. This makes them difficult to manage and difficult to plan for. And while the lack of fetch produces smaller waves, it also means it is harder to get away from a lee shore. It's harder to head out to sea to ride something out, especially on the smaller of the Great Lakes. This means that some tactics that work well on the oceans are not so suited for the Lakes.

But with all this talk of how nasty the Lakes are, and in particular Lake Superior (hum the some song with me: "When the gales of November come early...") the truth is you are better served with a good set of light-airs sails than storm sails during the prime sailing season on the Lakes. June to August more often produces light winds than heavy.
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:35   #22
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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June to August more often produces light winds than heavy.
Not this year! 85-90 degrees F, regularly 20-35 knots of air. It has been the best summer I can remember! Hot AND windy- what else could one ask for?
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:48   #23
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Not this year! 85-90 degrees F, regularly 20-35 knots of air. It has been the best summer I can remember! Hot AND windy- what else could one ask for?
Very true Tetepare! In fact, I'm sitting here wasting time on CF instead of sailing b/c there's too much damn wind out there right now!
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:51   #24
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Having sailed Lake Superior for over a decade I'm always amused when people bring up Stan Roger's most popular song, Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald. It's actually one of his worst songs ....
FWIW: "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", Music and lyrics 1976 by Gordon Lightfoot (not Rogers).
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:53   #25
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

I'll just add in that while those photos were winter photos, there are other times even during the season when some pretty interesting stuff can sneak up. There was just a pretty hefty storm that came through a couple weeks ago, there were a few people with firsthand accounts on the forums that described parts of it. So sure, while there weren't any pictures, and certainly none taken in the manner of the winter photos linked in the original post, they still aren't anything to be shirked.
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:53   #26
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Not this year! 85-90 degrees F, regularly 20-35 knots of air. It has been the best summer I can remember! Hot AND windy- what else could one ask for?
Good beer. Which there is plenty of in Michigan.
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Old 30-08-2016, 07:59   #27
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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FWIW: "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", Music and lyrics 1976 by Gordon Lightfoot (not Rogers).
Doh What the heck was I thinking. Of course! ... Not nearly enough coffee!

Thanks Gord. Still a boring song though...
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Old 30-08-2016, 08:35   #28
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

CharlzO, what the heck are you doing here. It's me Joe from Meetup. To the rest, it has been a breezy summer hasn't it. Glad I bought the storm jib as it has been a real treat and made some stronger wind days more enjoyable. FWIW the Oday 27 is a ridiculous boat with a rig that dwarfs most 35 footers in height. 38+ from the waterline. It is extremely tender as well. Beam and broad reaching are its' favorite points of sail. I did upsize the storm jib to 64 sq. ft. instead of the recommended 48. With a single reef she handles great in the 25 - 30 knot range. Beyond that it does get dicey. So with my experience know that both ocean and lakes offer unique challenges. I don't like to overstate my credentials as less experienced sailors are learning what works and doesn't by our posts. In the end I would much rather face down a storm on the ocean with this same boat than take a pounding on the Lakes. Those with more experience offer even more options. I can say this, I have never seen a crane have the controls ice up and crush the cab while working from a barge while setting doors over a nuke plant water intake on the ocean. I did on Ontario in March. Never lost a tug until Lake Erie in June.
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Old 30-08-2016, 08:49   #29
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

Its not the weather,. It's the confused state of an inbound shallow sea that makes it unsafe. Reflections and accumulation of waves. The pics reflect this.
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Old 30-08-2016, 09:58   #30
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Re: So You Think It's Just A Lake, Right?

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Good beer. Which there is plenty of in Michigan.
Doh What the heck was I thinking. Of course!
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