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Old 29-08-2007, 10:48   #46
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I read a bit of history on the Middle East a while back and I learned that the region was in fact well forested many thousands of years ago. With a bit more research you'll also find out that it is generally accepted fact that human activity de-forested the area and dramatically changed the eco-system, resulting in what we see today. Man is an industrious little buggar and seems to be able to pretty much wipe out whatever he chooses to on the planet that he depends on for survival. It's too bad Al Gore is the "messiah" because he's bogus, no question, but the problems we face ecologically are real. And Benny is right, what's the downside to reducing emissions?
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Old 29-08-2007, 14:27   #47
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To support jdope71's post read "A Short History of Progress" and "Stolen Continents" by Ronald Wright.
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Old 03-10-2007, 23:47   #48
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Just wanted to suggest an interesting video called ''.

"If you were to ask ten people on the street if mankind was causing global warming, at least eight out of ten would say yes. After all, Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth provides incontrovertible evidence that this is the case. Yet, contrary to what is heard in the media, there is overwhelming evidence that the warming we are experiencing is natural, with maybe a small amount contributed by man’s activities. Nor is there any scientific consensus. The debate is still raging within the scientific community. Sovereignty International has put together interviews of climate scientists and biologists from numerous sources who explain, step by step, why Al Gore and the global warming alarmists are incorrect. In some cases, blatantly so. It also provides evidence that the global warming agenda is being funded with tens of billions of dollars as a mechanism to create global governance. Hear from congressmen, experts and even well-known news broadcasters how global governance puts global institutions that are not accountable to the American people in control of every aspect of our economy. The U.S. government is very close to making this a reality. Very close. Every American, every citizen of the world, needs to hear the other side of the global warming story."

Edit...

Another Ice Age?
Time Magazine
Monday, Jun. 24, 1974
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:04   #49
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My interest is in seeing changes with which nobody can argue...not that we know why, just that it's interesting.

For example...two things..

Did anyone see the time lapse satellite photo of how the North polar ice cap is melting this summer WAY more than normal? The point of the broadcast was that they know ice will not return to some areas that just last year were ice bound in the winter so now there is International debate over what country has the rights to put offshore oil drilling stations in the areas that now will not see ice return. If the rate of ice melt shown in the pictures is real, that is more shocking than the pictures of ice melt in Al Gore's film.

Second thought, and back to something closer to the point of the original post. I grew up in Southern, lower Michigan (Battle Creek) and my possibly-hazy memory recalls ice walls from freezing water in Lake Michigan every winter pounding the shore, and news every winter about that point in the winter when even ice breakers could not keep the shipping lane open to Chicago on Lake Michigan. As I fly in or out of Chicago the last few winters, there was NO ice on lake Michigan...NONE.
Is Lake Michigan freezing less than it did 50 years ago?
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Old 04-10-2007, 21:33   #50
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Positive Proof of Global Warming

This should end the debate once and for all...
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Old 05-10-2007, 00:40   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blove8 View Post
Just wanted to suggest an interesting video called ''.


Another Ice Age?
Time Magazine
[/SIZE]Monday, Jun. 24, 1974
Thanks for that! It supports alot of what I had to say in another thread a few months ago. Healthiest coral reefs hardest hit by climate change

There was a showing on the History Channel yesterday "Mega Freeze" which shows more theories that confirm the Angel Glazer theories. http://www.history.com/media.do?id=m...nd&action=clip

So, Global Warming could be just the start of the next big freeze.

Who was it here that was asking about sailing South?
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Old 05-10-2007, 08:42   #52
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tspringer,
Just got back from a two day Nobel conference on energy and the panel of cutting edge scientists seem to be in agreement with Gord's statement that while temperatures have been naturally cyclical in 40,000 and 21000 year periods, much of the current change is due to our habits. They were in agreement that things CAN be done to slow or correct the effect we are having. They look at things like not allowing any more coal fired power generating plants to be built unless they are equipped to capture the Co2 and store it, transitioning from liquid fuels to biomass (they view ethanol from corn as very temporary on the way to grasses which don't require fertilizers, use very little pesticide, are perennials so don't cause erosion) and eventual use of fuel cells and hydrogen.

On a more personal level they suggest things like not driving 4000 pound tanks and eating more locally grown foods. Eating fresh strawberries in Minnesota in December might not be a good choice for our environment.

Will Steger was the final speaker and he showed some pretty alarming slides of the changes to the arctic regions to the ice sheets. He said extinction of species such as polar bears is well underway. Reproducton is way down because of malnutrition of the adults.

This thing hit home for me when I recently watched a documentary film of Mt. Kilimanjaro. I took a lot of pictures of the ice fields at the top on a climb 40 years ago and most of these areas are now ice free.

In regard to doing something about the problem, one of the speakers suggested that if an airline spokesman came on board a plane about to take off and announced that there was a ten percent chance the plane would crash, there would be a stampede to get off, if scientists make a similar prediction about our planet the reaction is to do another study.

Ellis
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Old 05-10-2007, 11:43   #53
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::shrug::

There are still people who argue that the science is not settled that tobacco is harmful to human health, and in fact at least two of the "scientists" who are arguing that global warming is not a settled fact are also part of that pro-tobacco lobby. No sensible scientist is disputing global warming as a human-influenced and ongoing event, though there is quibbling about what it means.

And I'm saying that as someone heavily involved in academia.

One of the more interesting essays I've read recently about the situation was an economic one: it correlated the "shifts" in Whitehouse position vis á vis global warming with EU industrial investment in carbon and energy technologies. In short, the more money which is being invested by competitors in clean energy, the more the Bush administration waffles.

Which seems to me to take "global warming" into the realm of political debate, and not scientific. Money talks.
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Old 05-10-2007, 13:01   #54
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No sensible scientist is disputing global warming as a human-influenced and ongoing event
I beg to differ.

Edit: Video -
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Old 05-10-2007, 15:20   #55
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Thanks blove8, Great Link. Last time I checked that video had been taken off the net. Guess dissension wasn't suitable viewing...
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Old 05-10-2007, 15:40   #56
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I beg to differ.
Edit: Video -
You should beg to apologise.

The argument presented, by British television producer Martin Durkin, in “The Great Global Warming Swindle” is a pseudo-documentary, based on out of date, discredited, or fraudulently misrepresented data.

Sine then, two of the scientists who took part in the film, have made public complaints about the way the film was made. They claim that the way the film was edited gave a misleading impression of critical data and their own viewpoints. There has been a storm of complaint from at least 37 other scientists *(1).
Carl Wunsch, professor of physical oceanography at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the film,The Great Global Warming Swindle”, was ‘grossly distorted’ and “as close to pure propaganda as anything since World War Two”.He says his comments in the film were taken out of context and that he would not have agreed to take part if he had known it would argue that man-made global warming was not a serious threat.
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Old 05-10-2007, 15:43   #57
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I don't know how anyone can seriously believe global warming is just a natural climate phase. Look at the garbage spewed into the air everyday from cities the world over. Megatonnes of greenhouse gases. Want a treat? Find a high vantage point about 25 miles from any major city and *if* you can see actually see that far enjoy viewing that brown haze of crud rising into the atmosphere. Now multiply that by hundreds.

As someone asked before, what is the downside to to reducing greenhouse gas producing activities? Economics? Lame argument when your are killing your life raft. If global warming believers are wrong then all we end up with is a cleaner world, if the deniers are wrong we end up with no world. I like to err on the side of safety.

It also doesn't wash to try and wrap this thing up in some wacko "global governance" theory. You really believe that the 3rd world is going to support the 1st world in anything? Or that Iran might agree with the western world on anything? I love a good conspiracy theory but it's gotta have a least a touch of reality and this "global governance" thing is way out there beyond reality.
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Old 05-10-2007, 15:46   #58
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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
You should beg to apologise.

The argument presented, by British television producer Martin Durkin, in “The Great Global Warming Swindle” is a pseudo-documentary, based on out of date, discredited, or fraudulently misrepresented data.

Sine then, two of the scientists who took part in the film, have made public complaints about the way the film was made. They claim that the way the film was edited gave a misleading impression of critical data and their own viewpoints. There has been a storm of complaint from at least 37 other scientists *(1).
Carl Wunsch, professor of physical oceanography at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the film,The Great Global Warming Swindle”, was ‘grossly distorted’ and “as close to pure propaganda as anything since World War Two”.He says his comments in the film were taken out of context and that he would not have agreed to take part if he had known it would argue that man-made global warming was not a serious threat.
Which facts from the film are being distorted exactly?
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Old 05-10-2007, 15:51   #59
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See: Deconstructing Channel 4's Great Global Warming Swindle:
http://inthegreen.typepad.com/blog/2007/03/deconstructing_.html

You may also wish to consider the coments at:
The Great Global Warming Swindle Questions Answered « Reasic

In August 2007, Mike Lockwood of the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory published a study which may have put the final nail in the coffin for the anti-CO2 brigade. He has shown than since 1985, solar activity has run in the opposite direction to global warming and therefore cannot explain rises in average global temperatures.
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Old 05-10-2007, 15:52   #60
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It also doesn't wash to try and wrap this thing up in some wacko "global governance" theory.
I love the ad hominems... a sign of no rational argument.
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