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Old 30-12-2014, 10:38   #16
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

I'm going to vote for the River system. Great way to start a retirement and I bet you will really enjoy the scenery nothing like passing the arch in St Louis from the water or the Cliffs of Dover on the TennTom and everything inbetween and your wife will enjoy the softer ride. Do drop you mast before leaving Chicago (back up in either Demopolis, AL or Dog River, check prices) and come on down. That time of year you are going to feel like you have already reach FL. Need more I'm near mm 66 of the Tennessee River and bee this way many times.

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Old 30-12-2014, 10:38   #17
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Originally Posted by SVTwilight View Post
Once to Buffalo I prefer the Welland Canal route through Lake Ontario to Oswego for reasons already mentioned. You can get the mast pulled there and head down the Oswego barge canal to Oneida Lake

Another interesting option I have seen is to sail the boat to Buffalo and then truck it to Annapolis. That is 400 miles so the truck can do that in one day, so with relatively minimal time and expense.
Once you get to Buffalo that time of the year, I would go right into the canal (assuming you can get under 15' air draft with the mast down).

If you take the weland route, you are still playing the weather on the big lake. It would be easy to get stuck for a week or more if the weather turns snotty. Once in the canal, weather is pretty much a non-issue and you can set your own schedule (then again we really enjoied the erie canal)

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Old 30-12-2014, 11:32   #18
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Other than just fun, if your plan is to be in Pensacola, is there a reason you prefer the east coast route, down around Florida, then up the west coast of Florida to Pensacola ?
Leaving in Sept makes time your worst enemy. Doing the Erie Canal in 6 to 8 days is extremely aggressive and takes any fun out of that portion of the trip.
With 35 locks and, what, 17 lift bridges, you may end up doing a lot of waiting. Also, the Canal has moved to fewer lock tenders and bridge tenders which means that one operator may be responsible for 2 or even three bridges or locks..... another bottleneck during the transit season. Having said all of that, I love the Erie Canal and I am certain that if you end up rushing through it you will be disappointed that more time was not available to be more leisurely.

If you arrive in Annapolis anytime after the 2nd or 3rd week in Sept, I would wager you would have an extraordinarily difficult time obtaining dockage or a mooring ball in Annapolis or Eastport..... assuming you want to be in Annapolis proper. Remember, they remove at least half of the mooring balls to make room for the show.
For planning, I have made the trip from Put in Bay (South Bass Island) to Buffalo in 33 hours, call it 30 to 35 hours based on wind and sea state, then another 5 or 6 to the mouth of the Detroit river. You can make up to 9 mph from Buffalo ( after the Black Rock Lock) to the entrance of the Erie Canal due to the current.
If you opt for the Welland Canal that will be a 6 to 8 hour transit and I am not certain that route to the Canal through Oswego will gain you anything. Remember that the Oswego canal has 7 ( 8 ? ) locks of its own to slow you down.
All of this soumds negative, I know, but, only in regard to your time constraints. I have sailed from Sandusky, Ohio throught the Erie Canal on number of occassions, and that is my preferred route..... I really enjoy the Canal. My feeling is that you would not enjoy it based on your schedule.
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Old 30-12-2014, 11:45   #19
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Originally Posted by R[I
olfP;1710400]My boat (1982 Morgan 383, 6' draft, 50?' air draft) is on Lake Superior, my retirement could start about August, and I want to head out ASAP in September to get moving South on the Atlantic or ICW (depending on boat condition/readiness) by Oct 1st. I just read that the Erie Canal closes on September 1st. Does anyone know about this? Also, is it completely unreasonable for me to expect to sail and/or motor to NY from L Superior in 30 days? Here are some thoughts I am having for the Great Lakes Escape:
  • Get on Erie Canal at Niagara on Erie. So far my first choice but timing is the issue if the canal closes.
  • Get on Erie Canal from Ontario at Oswego
  • Drop into Lake Michigan, take the rivers (Illinois-?-Tenn-Tom?)through to Mobile AL. I don't know much about this route.
  • Go out the St. Lawrence and around Nova Scotia, then head south. Extra 1000+miles (at 8hrs/day@4.5kt = ??) I've heard there isn't much fuel up there either, I figure I have about 400-500 miles in my tank.
  • Truck it overland over the winter (put off retirement ) to Pensacola (retirement home is there), January eastward ho.
Where do I get my mast dropped, and when/where do I put it back up on the Erie Canal or Hudson? What about the Ohio/Illinois etc river system? Can I carry the mast or do I have to have it shipped? Anyone know anything about shipping a mast?

I REALLY need to jump on the boat, get some basics set up and fixed (bulkhead in my lazarette that needs re-tabbing - all other stuff is non-critical), and take off ASAP after I retire so I don't find myself in some limbo world of waiting for the "right time". I figure if I leave right away then that will be the right time, and if I need something I can get it taken care of on the way. A great goal I keep coming back to is to make it to Annapolis by the Oct boat show, I haven't been to that since I was about 10.

So if I must, I can leave earlier than Sept (wife not happy about that but I might have to man up), but I am wondering about the Erie Canal and its official closing date. Has anyone else done this route in the fall? What about trucking? Do I cause more damage trucking or sail/motoring? Its about 850 NM to the end of Erie, then 6-8 days for the canal and Hudson, then the ICW to FL or off-shore (1300? to St. Martin?). Boat gets beat up either way?

Thoughts and advice and information appreciated

Hi ! I escaped last July from Manistee, lake Michigan, to Northen Chesapeake (Did it before, in 1980, after purchasing a Chance 33 in Chicago). This time I motor/sailed it with my son to Buffalo, got the mast down at Wardell Boat Yard in Tonawanda & motored the 33 locks in 5 & 1/2 day to Hudson river NY... Build your own "A" shape mast supports for Wardell's carpenter is no good I pay $75 for the 33 locks (Cheap) I put all the pictures on Google+ I'm now under the sun in Sint Maarten Dutch West Indies
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Old 30-12-2014, 12:02   #20
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

These two links may be useful.

Primer For First Timers Heading South

Cruising the NY State Canal System
That hysterical laughter you hear as you sail a way in your "new" boat ..... is the seller.
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Old 30-12-2014, 12:05   #21
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Clear across the world from you, and a great many sea miles, Rolf, but I find I have a few opinions about this issue:

1) attend to the bulkhead first of all

2) due to the possibility of beating up the boat as well as yourselves, I think the river trip would be more fun --especially so, if your wife is going, it will give her time to develop her own boat routines-- and possibly less frightening.

3) Our experience has been that whenever you have a schedule, it tends to dominate all subsequent decisions. I think the rivers route allows you more options as well as more leisure.

Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:55   #22
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

I'm quite sure that the Erie Canal remains open to navigation past September 1st. Their website indicates a planned opening of May 1, 2015, but you will have to call them for 2015 closing information as it has not been posted. 1-800-4CANAL4 or 1-800-422-1825.

I see no benefit in you transiting to Ontario through the Welland Canal. Go to Buffalo and then you have to make a decision about your mast. You can unstep it and have it shipped, or go up to Wardell's Boatyard in Tonawanda (start of the Erie Canal), and have them lower your mast, and then you carry it onboard through the canal. It is cheaper - but you have to all the de-rigging. There is a bone-yard of cradles and sawhorses to put your mast on, but you will have to secure it. For the canal transit, it should not be a problem, but you need it well secured for the upper-Hudson, as there is ship traffic to contend with at times.

You can have the mast shipped to the Hop-o-nose Marina in Catskil, NY, and they have a crane to re-step it. Again, you will have to do the re-attachement of the rigging, or you can hire them. You can leave the horses there for the next upbound boat.

This is the least expensive way to do it. Personally, I would unstep at Buffalo and ship it to Catskill. Otherwise the standing rigging is everywhere, and it's a pain to step over it trying to get through the locks.

There is one lock between Buffalo and Tonawanda, and 35 on the canal, including Lock #1, which is at Troy, NY on the Hudson. 33 locks will go down, and 2 will go up, heading from west to east.

You will need to buy a pass - probably two, depending on long you take to transit. Plan on 8 to 10 days, but it is weather dependent. We were stopped for three days waiting upbound, when torrential rains closed the canal. There is no way to plan for that. The canal is a charming place with many small towns to visit. Try to stop and smell the roses if you can. NOTE: The swing bridges on the western canal ("the Ditch") are only about 15 feet clearance. If you have a separate radar mast or wind generator, check your clearance on that.

The canal closes at dark (about 10:00pm in the summer), and re-opens at 7:00am each morning. you will be able to tie-up on the lock approach wall or at a town dock, and possibly have power and showers available, depending on the location. We liked to clear the last lock late, and then tie up on the approach wall AFTER we went through, so we could start in the morning without having o wait for the lock to open.

An alternative to Hop-o-nose further south would be the Haverstraw Marina in West Haverstraw, NY, or Lockwood Boatworks in Sayerville, NJ, on the Raritan Bay. They are probably the closest full-service marinas to your route, before you hit the open ocean off New Jersey. There is really not much opportunity to sail on the Hudson (more downbound than upbound), so you don't necessarily need your mast up. Haverstraw is on the west bank of the Hudson about halfway from Albany to New York City, and to get to Lockwood's simply take the right cut into the Raritan Bay after clearing the Verrazano Narrows bridge, they are 10 miles down on the south shore. You cannot step the mast above Albany due to a low clearance train bridge there. Once south of Albany you can step it at any of the aforementioned locations.

One final note on the locks. there are two types of securing methods and you are responsible to secure your boat in the locks - no one will assist you typically. In the first case - the kind you will find in your first two locks at Lockport, NY, they are aircraft cables made fast vertically to the lock wall. To do the aircraft cable, simply motor up to it and stop with the cable amidships, then take a line around it to the amidships cleat. Put a person on the bow and a person on the stern to fend off the lock wall and ride the cable down, as water is let out of the lock. Bring fenders with covers that you don't mid having destroyed - many lock walls are in need of repair and they are slimy!

The other attachment method is a series of ropes that hang off the wall at intervals usually less than the length of your boat. In this case, simply motor to the lock wall and position the boat with a line near the bow and one near the stern. Have your mates put on gloves and take hold of each line. Put a third mate amidships to fend off and then ride the water down, using the line to keep the boat on the wall. Going down is easy - much calmer than going up! Some locks have big chunks out of them and you have to be careful when fending off, or the boat will ride up against the wall. DO NOT try this method with the aircraft cables - they are too far apart (although we were on a 40-footer). We made that mistake with near-disastrous results, when we broke free in the lock!

Anyway, hope this helps - good luck to you.

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Old 30-12-2014, 14:30   #23
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

You have had some excellent advice by the above contributors on your options to head South. It is up to you and your wife to decide which route is preferable. However, a couple concerns that you should consider are:
1.) Beginning in late August, the autumnal winds begin to blow with greater intensity and frequency. They continue to strengthen significantly in September and by October can be quite fierce with 30k winds being common for extended periods and sea states 6-10 feet plus. These are not the gentle rollers of the North Atlantic but cold, short, steeply faced breakers that challenge even the most experienced sailors. The weather becomes quite cold on the lakes and weather windows are short and changeable.
2.)In addition to weather concerns, you have serious structural issues with your bulkheads. Even with a keel stepped mast, the torsional stresses and point loading created in lumpy seas can be quite significant and may further damage and/or endanger yourself and your boat.
3.) Is your wife a tested sailor? Can she handle your boat in a worst case scenario? Is she willing to take advantage of weather windows and sail for days . . . weather permitting? What is her take on this adventure?
4.) Since this is a difficult time to sail the Great Lakes, why not move your boat East(as others have suggested) during the late Spring/Early Summer and transit the Canal in early Fall? The St. Lawrence involves some serious sailing and adds additional miles/time and unless you're willing to spend some days offshore you'll never make your goal. And, although some have suggested Ole Miss, it is a dirty, debris filled, current riddled river with shifting sandbars and much barge traffic. However, the duck hunting is great and you could kill a few fat mallards for duck l'orange while quaffing Dom Perignon.
Your journey is a serious one and you should have the cards stacked in your favor before leaving. And with a good Nordic name as Rolfe --"the Wolf" with the blood of the Vikings running in your veins, you know you will be protected by Aegir, god of the sea, . . . . although, you might have to have a few more bottles of Dom around to be certain he is pleased. Good luck, good sailing, bror Viking. Rognvald
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Old 30-12-2014, 14:38   #24
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

vasca has a good idea - work the boat done stream, as it were, in hops during the season and then jump off from there.

I would also consider going down the Illinois River to the Tenn/Tom system but going south on Lake Michigan during September and October could either take awhile or be a REAL STINKER. If the storm winds come from the NW, you can sail like a scalded cat as the winds would be offshore with little wave action. If they come from the SW, you will end up mid-Lake with mountain like waves - you know, very sharp, steep and often! There are places in Chicago that can take the mast down and you can wend your way south. You don't really want to reach New Orleans until after late October or early November. I don't know if marinas are still open at that time but getting fuel on the Tenn/Tom shouldn't be a problem. I want to take that route once my boat is finished but she draws nearly 7'. I don't think I can take the more traveled road, unfortunately.

Good Luck!
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:53   #25
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

We made a similar trip last year on our Beneteau First 375. We left on August 28th from Windsor Ontario (near Detroit) so you will have some extra milesto cover. We stepped the mast in Buffalo the first week of September and were out of the Canal by Sept 13 and the Canal was open long after we were gone. There are 3 locations that step rigs there . It is a bit pricey at $8 per foot based on over-all mast length. There is no one that ships masts so bring binder straps and yards have lumber to build stands to carry on deck. Rig goes back at Castleton on the Hudson. Boat club there is very helpfull and you can use their equipment to put rig back up for $50 or there are full service yard to do it for you. We pushed hard but we were in Annapolis by Sept 18, way ahead of the boat show. If I can give you more info let me know or check my blog at
I also just helped deliver a boat from Chicago to Mobile this fall and I would never do that trip again. Not enough marinas, or anchorages and way too many logs, trees and other obstuctions.
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Old 30-12-2014, 17:41   #26
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Just throw it on a truck and have it delivered to Boston for $2,500. Seriously.
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Old 30-12-2014, 17:50   #27
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

I priced having a 38 footer trucked from jacksonville Florida to Detroit and it was over 10 grand.
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Old 30-12-2014, 18:06   #28
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Rolf, what's the rush? As Ann said, there's nothing worse than a tight schedule for cruising. If speed really is the primary concern, there's nothing faster than a plane ticket . Or as others have suggested, you could use a truck.

I've re-read your initial post, and I wonder if you need to take a step back and think about whether this life really is what would fulfil you. It's a cliché, but cruising is more about the journey than the destination. You talk about retiring in August, and then rushing through some of the most stunning cruising grounds in the world as fast as possible. You "need" to get going asap, and you talk about a less-than-happy spouse. All of this sounds like a setup for disaster.

I usually refrain from pop-psychological analysis on forums, but I wonder if you should take a step back, and think about what you're trying to achieve. If I were you (which I recognize, I am not), I would enjoy the time next season exploring the Great Lakes, and fixing up your boat. There's a lifetime of cruising on Lake Superior alone, and if winter gets you down, there's lots of chartering options.

Slow down, smell the roses. The Caribbean isn't going anywhere.
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Old 30-12-2014, 23:12   #29
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Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Thanks everyone for the great info. There is some concern about my urgency and timeline. I really don't WANT to rush this, (and you can't really say I am if I'm talking about it now but won't leave until September) but I don't know another way to get my boat south AND make it to Annapolis AND not spend my kitty on trucking. I've wanted to do this for 40 years, I'm 61 and ready for it. Go simple (hah!) go small (not too small) go now (39 years later.) I will move aboard in early August and leave as soon as the family has gotten its summer sailing days in. I may take my son and daughter-in-law along for part of this, they already live a different life.

I've crossed L. Superior any number of times, and crewed from NS-Bermunda-St.Martin once. Chartered in the Grenadines which is nothing compared to L. Superior IMHO. I've also sailed Erie, and gone through the Welland Canal, and have followed the thread on the "best time to cross Michigan". I have no doubts on the serious nature of the Great Lakes.

Jeff B, ztsf, Mike O, and others: One reason I'm not concerned with smelling the roses on this initial trip: I've sailed a lot of L. Superior already over the last 10 years, and I will most likely return to it in 4-5 years. My wife will NOT be on this trip, but will be on the return trip and then we'll take all spring, summer, and fall if necessary to see the canal, the lakes, and slowly bring the boat "home". Meanwhile, she is still working and NOT going along on My Big Sailing Adventure, and I have 3 years or so to scratch that itch, I can wait for the Lakes and my itch is for the ocean. She'll be sad to see me off, but happy I get a chance to do this so eventually we can have the boat summers on L.Superior. Port to port daysailing is great, but passagemaking is NOT her itch. There will also be trips home, but also trips to/on the boat for both of us over the next few years.

So my main worries are 1) weather on the lakes and 2) timing, 3) Mast management. Thanks for ALL the very detailed replies, thank goodness I have some time to digest!

Sounds like Welland Canal - L.Ontario - Oswego is a good route, with others recommending the Canal at Buffalo. Now that I know the canal is open well into September I am leaning towards the canal at Buffalo. I'm thinking Buffalo would permit a transit in bad weather that I would have to wait out in St. Catherine. If the forecast is for storms maybe 9 days on the canal in the rain is better than 1-2 on Welland then pounding up Ontario. I expect to do overnight passages on the lakes with exceptions as needed for crew and weather. I expect a day or so between the lakes, and more waiting-for-weather time here and there. I am hoping for some experienced crew for the overnights and non-sailors for the day trips, particularly the canal.

Isearite and others regarding the Rivers: I would SO DO the Rivers (particularly on a Mainship!), but I have a sailboat and love to feel that thing move in the wind... I've always figured when I can't manage the rigging anymore I'll be looking for a trawler. Meanwhile, I'm stuck on wanting to get to Annapolis and the boat show, 2 experienced friends could join me for the off-shore portion from NY to Annapolis. Maybe because it holds some early memories with my father, long passed. BUT, I do really like the idea of moving south with the fall, keeping ahead of winter and as Anne C says: its "softer". Love that. That's what my body is becoming from sitting in front of a screen all day: softer. Not sure of plans after Annapolis, but thinking Bermuda, St. Martin, and Grenadines for starters. And that's another reason why the east coast rather than the Rivers, I want to go offshore. Someday I expect to land in Pensacola, but its down-wind from the West Indies, along with Bahamas, Keys, and lots of other places, right?

Ann C: Yes, the tabbing and a check/replacement of my standing rigging are my must-do items for first thing in the spring, followed by a zillion little non-critical things that keep showing up as they do on old boats. I appreciate your sage and thoughtful postings from the other side of the world during my winters in the MN tundra. Also very good point about the domination of schedule, I would not like to arrive in Annapolis unhappy with boating and sailing because it wore me out or provided little joy. However, I do find myself moved and inspired during almost any passage, stormy, wet, cold, hot, or calm. Okay, I love the anchorages too. I will definitely keep an eye on the terrorism of time!!

Alain: Thanks for the post and pictures, I intend to return to St. Martin for dinner at La Vie en Rose, it was closed when I was there last and the entire 9 days from Bermuda included a discussion about dinner there. Ha! My buddy went back last month and this time it was open for him. I have no real idea if its any good, but its the journey, not the destination, right?
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Old 31-12-2014, 04:01   #30
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Talking Re: How do I escape the Great Lakes in Sept?

Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Just throw it on a truck and have it delivered to Boston for $2,500. Seriously.
"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it."

"I made up my mind not to care so much about the destination, and simply enjoy the journey."

I took Sundance (34 footer) out of Lake Michigan last July. My son (22 yo) joined me from Sanilac, north of Detroit to NY/NY... Last week, he told me "Dad ! That was cool... whenever you take off again, call me !"

From Manistee, lake Michigan:
To St-Martin, French West Indies
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