Great Lakes Environmental Assessment and Mapping (GLEAM) Project

[Palarran]

Rognvald, believe what you want. When I was a kid my job, all summer long, was to rake dead fish and trash off the beach. You couldn't see more then 6' down through the water. The lake was a cesspool. Now it is near crystal clear.

As far as the scientific articles, I can't locate one that supports the lakes are getting more polluted now then before.

[rognvald]

"As far as the scientific articles, I can't locate one that supports the lakes are getting more polluted now then before." Palarran


Palarran, I never made that statement. I did, however, state that the entire Great Lakes are polluted and that Lake Michigan is still one of the worst. This is irrefutable.

[frank_f]

I don't think anyone would refute the fact that the lakes are polluted. Pollution means to make impure or unclean. By that definition, the first weed that rotted or the first fish that "peed in the pool" rendered the lakes polluted

The real questions are still to what extent are the lakes truly polluted and how do we return the lakes to a manageable balance.

I don't believe we will never be able to stop the pollution. The genie is out of the bottle.

As long as profits are more important than everything else, farms (agri-business actually) will continue to use fertilizers as well as pesticides and what ever else is deemed "for the greater good", factories will use the "unknown" storm drains and poor municipalities will get rid of their waste as economically as possible.

This is nothing new. This has been happening since the Industrial Revolution. Rachel Carson wrote about this back in 1962 (Silent Spring) and the corporate mind set hasn't changed and won't.

[rognvald]

One of the greatest abuses of Lake Michigan is Waukegan, Il. Harbor. OMC Corporation (Johnson Outboard Motors) dumped a million pounds of PCB's into the harbor during their major operational years. Here's an early 1980 article that describes the situation: www.csmonitor.com/1980/1203/120354.html. Over 30 years later, it is still a toxic dump with untold millions needed to properly remove the contamination. At one time, they poured concrete in the old harbor to seal the pollutants in the seabed and when you watched the water along the harbor's edges it would bubble. Waukegan was a corrupt machine run city that polluted at will enabled by greedy politicians on the take. It is today one of the few harbors that have not been developed on the West shore Of Lake Michigan since the cost of industrial pollutant cleanup far exceeds the worth of the property and any non industrial benefit. The area along the lake looks like the remains of an abandoned industrial city which is basically what it has become. Yet, young boys still fish and swim in the harbor despite the warnings. The EPA has been especially concerned that a full cleanup of the harbor could unlease a Pandora's Box of PCB's into the lake. This is just one example of the abuse to Lake Michigan that may never be resolved.

[Westerly33]

10 years ago I made a research to find out whether industrial pollution of the Great Lakes effect the fish health. I reviewed all the available literature from long before the date and up to the date. I analyzed results for smelters, pulp and paper meals and so on all over the Great Lakes.
No reliable evidence was found that point pollution by the industry discharge cause fish health deterioration like tumours, deformities and others even though in some cases measurable quantities of organic and inorganic pollutants were observed in the water in the discharge vicinities.

I also investigate Zebra mussels distribution in lake Ontario. In resent years the mussels are almost disappeared. The white banks all around the lake appeared few years ago and they consist of billions of billions of Zebra mussel shells.

They appear to be returning, though.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Westerly33

10 years ago I made a research to find out whether industrial pollution of the Great Lakes effect the fish health. I reviewed all the available literature from long before the date and up to the date. I analyzed results for smelters, pulp and paper meals and so on all over the Great Lakes.
No reliable evidence was found that point pollution by the industry discharge cause fish health deterioration like tumours, deformities and others even though in some cases measurable quantities of organic and inorganic pollutants were observed in the water in the discharge vicinities.

I also investigate Zebra mussels distribution in lake Ontario. In resent years the mussels are almost disappeared. The white banks all around the lake appeared few years ago and they consist of billions of billions of Zebra mussel shells.

They appear to be returning, though.

This 2012 study by the Illinois Department of Health contradicts your independent research on the effects of fish contamination.
www.atsdr.cdc.gov/.../OMCWaukeganHarbor/...

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I don't know about the other's but Lake Michigan is as clean now as I've ever seen. It's the zebra mussles.

NO; the Lake is as CLEAR as you've seen.

Zebra mussels upset ecosystems, threaten native wildlife, damage structures, and cause other serious problems.

Zebra mussels are filter feeders. Able to filter a litre of water a day, zebra mussels remove phytoplankton from the water, leaving less food for organisms such as juvenile fish.

The filter-feeding activity of zebra mussels does cause a related and frequently dramatic increase in water clarity in infested lakes and rivers.

[rognvald]

Here's a better link for the government study I referenced above:
www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HAC/pha/OMCWaukeganHarbor/OMCWaukeganHarborHC11292012.pdf

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

I don't like the non-natural heavy metals in the water.

There are plenty of people on welfare that could spend a day or two a week in the nice weather scraping shells off of places and removing them to a safe landfill.

You nieve person. The zebra muscles are invasive. They have spread to cover every square foot of every square hard surface across the entire lake. The dead shells pile up feet thick on windward shores. Their presence has wreacked havok with native species by displacing their egg laying gronds. A chain left in the water in the spring is 6" diameter with encrusted, razor sharp shells by fall. We are talking about millions of tons of live muscles by fall every year.

They do fix the heavy metals in their shells. This leaves an annual sediment of dead shells with trace heavy metals extending over hundreds of square miles. The best thing is to leave them alone and let them sink into oblivion.

BTW, it is not generally noted that there is a backgrong level of these heavy metals even if man had never existed. Don't let this issue divert attention from the fact that human and farm manure is by far the greatest pollutant by 10,000 to one. AND if the nutrient load was eliminated, the zebra muscles would soon run out of the endless food supply and come into a tollearable equilibrium at a far lower concentration.

Stop passing the buck - we are pooping in the lakes and no amount of trying to blame someone or something else will solve this problem.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by GordMay

NO; the Lake is as CLEAR as you've seen.

Zebra mussels upset ecosystems, threaten native wildlife, damage structures, and cause other serious problems.

Zebra mussels are filter feeders. Able to filter a litre of water a day, zebra mussels remove phytoplankton from the water, leaving less food for organisms such as juvenile fish.

The filter-feeding activity of zebra mussels does cause a related and frequently dramatic increase in water clarity in infested lakes and rivers.

I'll stand 1/2 corrected. I think it is clearer and cleaner than at any period of my life. But I'm only 50 so maybe it was cleaner for others earlier in time.

In regard to zebra mussles, of course we would have been better off without them. The biggest effect I've seen and heard of is on perch populations. I wish we didn't have gobies also. But they are here and unlikely to ever go away so we might as well deal with it. I'll look at the positive side which is they have made the lakes clearer.

Gord, since you started this thread, have you found a study the shows the Great Lakes are more polluted now than in the past? Anyone? Of course we still need to control it but IMO huge progress has been made in the last 40 years.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Gord, since you started this thread, have you found a study the shows the Great Lakes are more polluted now than in the past? Anyone? Of course we still need to control it but IMO huge progress has been made in the last 40 years.

I'm not Gord but mercury levels have been increasing in the Great Lakes according to the EPA.

Mercury | Open Lakes Trend Monitoring | Great Lakes | US EPA

[sabray]

General assessment is that the lakes will have lowered rainfall. Higher acidic content. The nay say guys are fewer. If you follow the graph of scientist that are concerned you will see how it tips tword a concern and away from the no problem man I have weed and its all cool right wing guys.

[sailingjazz]

Good discussion. Unfortunately it seems that many of the easy fixes have been applied and the point source pollution is more and more under control. We are left with the expensive sources of pollution; city combined storm and sanitary sewer overflow, farm run-off, city run-off (why do people put fertilizer on yards?) , and the huge amounts of pollutants we pump into the air. This is an interesting read;
The Great Lakes: *An Environmental Atlas and Resource Book

[Sailor g]

Originally Posted by sailingjazz

Good discussion. Unfortunately it seems that many of the easy fixes have been applied and the point source pollution is more and more under control. We are left with the expensive sources of pollution; city combined storm and sanitary sewer overflow, farm run-off, city run-off (why do people put fertilizer on yards?) , and the huge amounts of pollutants we pump into the air. This is an interesting read;
The Great Lakes: *An Environmental Atlas and Resource Book

The sewage runoff is bad (it's often the reason for ocean pollution out here too). I am not sure why it is allowed. Seems like something could be done-diverted, captured or something. People just need to put pressure on those at fault.

I don't understand why people put fertilizer on lawns either-even more, herbicides. Growing up in Michigan, our lawn was beautiful-filled with clover & dandelions. My grandparents made dandelion wine & we ate the the greens in the spring. Who came up with the idea that a pure green grass was best? I think it's boring.

I am buying more & more organic to keep chemical pollution down as well. Also, just buying less stuff-boat people tend to buy less since less room- altogether (less production, shipping & end of use pollution costs), using cloth (stronger) bags instead of plastic (cause of much of our ocean pollution source) and recycling whatever I can-buying used & give away or donate things I no longer use. I've even seen some homes use wetland areas to drain gray water so it is cleaned before traveling to water sources. If we all do what we can, it helps. Thanks for the link-the Great Lakes Atlas is a good source-though disturbing. The video The Human Footprint shows how much we buy/use over our life-scary!