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Old 19-12-2014, 12:23   #46
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
In spite of two separate claims, I don't see how living in Florida, which is one of the United States, makes one an expert in the politics of a foreign country.

Wait, wait, wait, I know this one, I know this one!

...it doesn't.
No, not an expert. It does likely mean that they were exposed to endless local TV news and pages and pages of the Sun Sentinel and the Miami Herald covering every nuance of the subject. As well as meeting Cuban families directly and probably going to school with them.
Was there some statement in Custom30s post that you feel is inaccurate?
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Old 19-12-2014, 12:34   #47
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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No, not an expert. It does likely mean that they were exposed to endless local TV news and pages and pages of the Sun Sentinel and the Miami Herald covering every nuance of the subject. As well as meeting Cuban families directly and probably going to school with them.
Was there some statement in Custom30s post that you feel is inaccurate?
Not to mention knowing a lot of Cubans living in south Florida who were able to escape from there (my brother is friends with a former Cuban military pilot, whom he does business with, who after defecting with his MIG, flew back later in a private plane and smuggled his family out).

Cuban Pilot Who Defected Flies Back for Family - NYTimes.com

The unasked question: "What conditions would make Cubans do stuff like this?"

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, but it's worth getting to know the facts, either way.
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Old 19-12-2014, 12:37   #48
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

There is precedent: living in Alaska made Sarah Palin an expert on Russia. Therefore, living in Florida makes us experts on Cuba!
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Old 19-12-2014, 12:39   #49
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

To my dismay no one has even considered the potential and consequences if, due to our own inertia against at least trying to improve relations with the Cuban government; we stand by and watch the island, only 90 miles from U.S. shores fall under the control and influence of China. It IS in the U.S. best interest to embrace our neighbors, and work through commerce - which is the primary means by which adversaries will at least communicate with one another - to raise standards of living for Cuban citizens. It is inevitable that if the Cuban government is going to make the new norm beneficial, changes in how people are governed must occur. And, remember whatever is done can be undone if no change occurs.
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Old 19-12-2014, 12:42   #50
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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There is precedent: living in Alaska made Sarah Palin an expert on Russia. Therefore, living in Florida makes us experts on Cuba!
I don't think she said she was an expert. I think she said she knew more about Russia than Obama and Biden. Events subsequent have pretty much proven her most likely correct on that issue.
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Old 19-12-2014, 12:45   #51
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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To my dismay no one has even considered the potential and consequences if, due to our own inertia against at least trying to improve relations with the Cuban government; we stand by and watch the island, only 90 miles from U.S. shores fall under the control and influence of China. It IS in the U.S. best interest to embrace our neighbors, and work through commerce - which is the primary means by which adversaries will at least communicate with one another - to raise standards of living for Cuban citizens. It is inevitable that if the Cuban government is going to make the new norm beneficial, changes in how people are governed must occur. And, remember whatever is done can be undone if no change occurs.

This is probably the most logical post of this entire thread
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Old 19-12-2014, 12:58   #52
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

If Cuba falls under the sway of China, maybe Grizzly and JET equipment will get even cheaper.
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Old 19-12-2014, 13:01   #53
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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To my dismay no one has even considered the potential and consequences if, due to our own inertia against at least trying to improve relations with the Cuban government; we stand by and watch the island, only 90 miles from U.S. shores fall under the control and influence of China. It IS in the U.S. best interest to embrace our neighbors, and work through commerce - which is the primary means by which adversaries will at least communicate with one another - to raise standards of living for Cuban citizens. It is inevitable that if the Cuban government is going to make the new norm beneficial, changes in how people are governed must occur. And, remember whatever is done can be undone if no change occurs.
Well, you have a point. We lost in Vietnam (and, didn't lose, but didn't win in Korea, as well) because the Communists were willing to sustain any amount of loss, including their own citizens, in order to eventually win. Ho Chi Minh knew their capacity for pain and suffering exceeded our will to prevail. It is apparent that the Castros have the same training and mentality, and will win, for the same reason.

Amazing it took this long, really.
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Old 19-12-2014, 13:01   #54
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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... The only reason we treat Cuba so poorly is the fear of the Cuba voting block. More than 60% of the US feels this is wrong. ...
The special interests that oppose relations with Cuba don't want to let go of failed policy. Even in Miami the young people of Cuban descent say its time to move forward.

There are exceptions: Rubio Vows to Block Twenty-first Century - The New Yorker

(note to any CF hotheads, the link leads to article of satire)
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Old 19-12-2014, 13:06   #55
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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The special interests that oppose relations with Cuba don't want to let go of failed policy. Even in Miami the young people of Cuban descent say its time to move forward.

There are exceptions: Rubio Vows to Block Twenty-first Century - The New Yorker

(note to any CF hotheads, the link leads to article of satire)
I lived and worked in Miami. And, you're right. It's the people who had to flee Cuba and Castro, who hate him and who want to see Cuba free. Their kids, are glad their parents and grandparents had to flee and ended up in the US and could care less about Cuba or Cubans if they don't have relatives living there.
Given the choice, most would select a free I-Phone 6 over freedom for Cuba.
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Old 19-12-2014, 13:25   #56
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Look, a small minority of the sailors posting on this thread seem to be saying we should not sail to Cuba because we would be supporting a communistic regime. Well, yes, Castro did horrific things. But haven't we done horrific things right here in the good old USA? And if you don't believe that you need to get out your history books. The Castro boys are on their way out. Just like the old farts in this country are on their way out. (I will be 70 in about a month). More power to the folks who want to enjoy the beauty and culture of Cuba. And spread a little wealth around also.

Batista the ruler before Castro wasn't that great a guy as I remember. If he had of been Castro would not of been successful in his efforts to rid Cuba of him and the mafia who had more than a little interest on the island.


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Old 19-12-2014, 13:58   #57
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Fifty down, a few thousand to go.

Refworld | Report - Cuban Commission for Human Rights and National Reconciliation

Main thing, is just try not to think about that kind of icky stuff. Ruins the fun.
I don't know, but it seems to me that the release of fifty plus political prisoners is better than none - especially for those who have been released! And to me, enjoying travel to Cuba is no different than enjoying travel to many places - even though there is poverty, shortages of what we would consider essentials and a lack of political freedom, some people can still enjoy the experience of the place and the people who live there. You obviously disagree and of course, you need not travel there or anywhere else that has 'icky stuff.'

What I find difficult to comperhend, however, is why someone such as yourself - someone who purports to believe in individual freedoms - is supportive of a trade and travel embargo to Cuba. Does this not interfere with the individual freedom of others who do not share your views and would like to travel there and experience both the people and the place?

Frankly, I would have thought that all Americans would be proud of the fact that their president, with some international assistance, has negotiated the release of not only one of their own citizens, but 50 plus Cuban political prisoners. If the United States wants to be seen around the world as freedom fighters, they have certainly achieved at least a small, but important victory in that regard in the eyes of the Cuban people. Bravo!

Brad
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Old 19-12-2014, 14:21   #58
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

With the embargo easing up, can cruisers now anchor in Guantanamo Bay?
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Old 19-12-2014, 17:14   #59
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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I don't know, but it seems to me that the release of fifty plus political prisoners is better than none - especially for those who have been released! And to me, enjoying travel to Cuba is no different than enjoying travel to many places - even though there is poverty, shortages of what we would consider essentials and a lack of political freedom, some people can still enjoy the experience of the place and the people who live there. You obviously disagree and of course, you need not travel there or anywhere else that has 'icky stuff.'

What I find difficult to comperhend, however, is why someone such as yourself - someone who purports to believe in individual freedoms - is supportive of a trade and travel embargo to Cuba. Does this not interfere with the individual freedom of others who do not share your views and would like to travel there and experience both the people and the place?

Frankly, I would have thought that all Americans would be proud of the fact that their president, with some international assistance, has negotiated the release of not only one of their own citizens, but 50 plus Cuban political prisoners. If the United States wants to be seen around the world as freedom fighters, they have certainly achieved at least a small, but important victory in that regard in the eyes of the Cuban people. Bravo!

Brad
Let me clarify. I believe
A) That we should have a right to visit Cuba if we want to.
B) That anyone who would visit Cuba, and support their repression of human beings, in the name of getting a good deal, is not a nice person.
C) That visiting Cuba, and spending money there, is supporting a repressive government, whether you admit that or not.
D) That people, who do go to Cuba and spend money, are not going to be particularly shot in the ass with my beliefs.
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Old 19-12-2014, 18:05   #60
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Let me clarify. I believe
A) That we should have a right to visit Cuba if we want to.
B) That anyone who would visit Cuba, and support their repression of human beings, in the name of getting a good deal, is not a nice person.
C) That visiting Cuba, and spending money there, is supporting a repressive government, whether you admit that or not.
D) That people, who do go to Cuba and spend money, are not going to be particularly shot in the ass with my beliefs.
Would you also agree that by using China- made goods or burning Saudi oil one is also supporting a repressive government?

I find it difficult to argue your point if you also apply it elsewhere.
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