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Old 18-12-2014, 17:33   #16
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

The president overstepped Congress. It was Congress that created the embargo. Congress should vote to accept or reject a new policy. Isn't this how Democracy works? Secondly, after we established relations with Russia after the dissolution of the Soviet Republics, are things really any better today . . . especially in light of the current US sanctions against Russia? Thirdly, I lived in Miami for 12 years and developed countless friendships with professional Cubans who lost everything they owned when Castro raped the island and repatriated US and foreign business ventures. They left businesses, homes, property, and family with the clothes on their backs and were forced to start life anew in a new country and a new language--penniless. I find it amazing how so many "cruisers" are only concerned with visiting the island and ignore the heinous crimes, brutal oppression and lack of basic freedoms under the Castro Brothers as if Cuba is just another badge to earn towards their Eagle Scout status in cruising. Finally, I hope the moderators allow this important discussion to continue since it is one that has much interest to our community and can easily be discussed intelligently and civilly.
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Old 18-12-2014, 17:46   #17
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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You cannot leave politics aside. This is a communist country. Most of you have not lived under communism. It is horrible. Your pleasure of sailing there cannot possibly justify support of theses utopia and therefore bloody regimes. Naïveté is not far from stupidity in this case.
I can assume then you do not purchase anything from China or Saudi Arabia (where women are arrested in shopping malls if if not hijab), where political parties are banned?
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Old 18-12-2014, 18:10   #18
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
Isn't this how Democracy works?
It might be how some democracies work, but it isn't how the United States works.

You sound confused about how our system works.

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I find it amazing how so many "cruisers" are only concerned with visiting the island and ignore the heinous crimes, brutal oppression and lack of basic freedoms under the Castro Brothers as if Cuba is just another badge to earn towards their Eagle Scout status in cruising.
At some point, things stop being politics and become history.

If we're as intent on undoing past wrongs as it sounds like you are, I look forward to the day when all of the United States is returned to the tribes.
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Old 18-12-2014, 18:39   #19
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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. .. . I hope the moderators allow this important discussion to continue since it is one that has much interest to our community and can easily be discussed intelligently and civilly.
I hope so to rognvald....

I agree cruising tourists need to decide if they will... (by their physical attendance)..... inadvertently support a non democratic country with proven civil abuses, or choose to stay away and support economic sanctions that there own democratic country has invoked.

Not just talking about Cuba..... But some Asian countries as well

Seems the trick is to know whether these countries have developed a cultural bias towards unethical behavior, that will still remain corrupt even if a regime change happens.

If so, then the argument to just ignore it and enjoy a transient visit, is also valid.

My own selfish take is to be great full for what freedoms I have and to quietly reinforce that inalienable same right to anyone who is interested.
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Old 18-12-2014, 18:54   #20
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

I would venture that commerce will provided much needed jobs and income. It must require great self reliance and perseverance to survive and prosper in a totalitarian environment. Just being around such people should be a good thing for a cruiser. Further, a couple Walmarts and a Chevy dealership would provide quite a challenge to an ossified government.
I want to visit when the opportunity is available.
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Old 18-12-2014, 19:26   #21
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

I have been told that its great sailing, great culture, music and food and friendly natives. Im ready to earn my merit badge and maybe a red star too.....
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Old 18-12-2014, 19:50   #22
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

There is no way your mates in Miami are getting their land back. That's what this is all about. The wealthy landed families want it all back or no deal. That has been the driving force behind keeping the embargo in place. Has nothing to do with communism, ever buy anything from China?
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Old 18-12-2014, 19:54   #23
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
The president overstepped Congress. It was Congress that created the embargo. Congress should vote to accept or reject a new policy. Isn't this how Democracy works? Secondly, after we established relations with Russia after the dissolution of the Soviet Republics, are things really any better today . . . especially in light of the current US sanctions against Russia? Thirdly, I lived in Miami for 12 years and developed countless friendships with professional Cubans who lost everything they owned when Castro raped the island and repatriated US and foreign business ventures. They left businesses, homes, property, and family with the clothes on their backs and were forced to start life anew in a new country and a new language--penniless. I find it amazing how so many "cruisers" are only concerned with visiting the island and ignore the heinous crimes, brutal oppression and lack of basic freedoms under the Castro Brothers as if Cuba is just another badge to earn towards their Eagle Scout status in cruising. Finally, I hope the moderators allow this important discussion to continue since it is one that has much interest to our community and can easily be discussed intelligently and civilly.
Same way it worked for Duh W and his expansion of restrictions relating to Cuba via executive order. What's the difference besides political perspective?

What has the embargo accomplished to redress the loses of Cubans?
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Old 18-12-2014, 20:51   #24
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

I'm just pleased the moderators can be overridden.
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Old 18-12-2014, 23:30   #25
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Cool Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

Look, a small minority of the sailors posting on this thread seem to be saying we should not sail to Cuba because we would be supporting a communistic regime. Well, yes, Castro did horrific things. But haven't we done horrific things right here in the good old USA? And if you don't believe that you need to get out your history books. The Castro boys are on their way out. Just like the old farts in this country are on their way out. (I will be 70 in about a month). More power to the folks who want to enjoy the beauty and culture of Cuba. And spread a little wealth around also.
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Old 19-12-2014, 05:30   #26
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Originally Posted by leont View Post
You cannot leave politics aside. This is a communist country. Most of you have not lived under communism. It is horrible. Your pleasure of sailing there cannot possibly justify support of theses utopia and therefore bloody regimes. Naïveté is not far from stupidity in this case.

we of course have no issues with sailing to countries that equally have appalling regimes, as long of course as their " our friends"

conscience is a very selective thing in my experience.
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Old 19-12-2014, 06:12   #27
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Look, a small minority of the sailors posting on this thread seem to be saying we should not sail to Cuba because we would be supporting a communistic regime.
You wouldn't be supporting the regime. You would be helping to accelerate its demise.

And enjoying a nice cruise at the same time. Win for everyone around.
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Old 19-12-2014, 06:18   #28
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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One of the best ways to reform an oppressive government is to give the common person a good look at what they are missing.
Possibly a way to do that would be for Cubans to see cruisers, they just might decide they would like a little of that too.
Unless Cuba changes it's policies that it has for cruisers from other countries in place, now, that's not likely to happen. Right now, the only people who get to interact with cruisers (or just about any other foreign visitor) are loyal party members.

Ask someone whose been there what happens if a normal Cuban citizen tries to come out to your boat to visit you (and, for the obvious reason). Boats equal possible escape in Cuba.

If the US allows travel there, we would get cheap prices and beautiful scenery for the areas the Cubans allowed us to go. But, don't kid yourself that it would change anything for the average non-Party member Cuban. Ask yourself, "Everyone else, but us, already trades with Cuba and has for a long time. Why hasn't that changed anything so far?"

But, in the end, I don't think it matters what we do. Cuba and Cubans will be free when Fidel and Raoul are dead. Not before, no matter what anyone else does or doesn't do.
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Old 19-12-2014, 07:16   #29
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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Look, a small minority of the sailors posting on this thread seem to be saying we should not sail to Cuba because we would be supporting a communistic regime. Well, yes, Castro did horrific things. But haven't we done horrific things right here in the good old USA? And if you don't believe that you need to get out your history books. The Castro boys are on their way out. Just like the old farts in this country are on their way out. (I will be 70 in about a month). More power to the folks who want to enjoy the beauty and culture of Cuba. And spread a little wealth around also.
If that's what would happen and the wealth you leave behind would actually be spread around to the average Cuban citizen, I think we all could support this. However, this isn't a change in the way Cuba is governed or a change in their "economic system" so any money you spend there to buy anything will go to the Castro regime and the people will remain in abject poverty. Do we really want to support something like that just because it's a cool place to tell your buddies you visited? You're right that the grim reaper will soon take care of the Castro boys, but their oppressive system of government remains in place. It's not about those two individuals, it's about supporting an oppressive government with your $$$. I'd love to experience traditional Cuban culture too. Don't know much about it except for their music which I really enjoy. But the thought of going to a place where an oppressive government runs everything, runs and owns every business, and owns every place I might want to visit just doesn't seem right to me. If Cuba ever allows it's people the freedom to own and operate their own business, I'd love to go see the place and show support for that by spending some of my yankee dollars there, but not as long as I know any money I spend will be sucked up by a regime that will use that money to continue to oppress its own citizens and keep them in poverty and under the governments thumb.
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Old 19-12-2014, 07:32   #30
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Re: US and Cuba to normalize relationship!

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.... Don't know much about it except for their music which I really enjoy. But the thought of going to a place where an oppressive government runs everything, runs and owns every business, and owns every place I might want to visit just doesn't seem right to me. If Cuba ever allows it's people the freedom to own and operate their own business, ....
Maybe you should go, get off the boat and visit the cities. You might find your description of the place is just as you've written. You also might find that there are hundreds of small businesses willing to rent you rooms, cook you meals, taxi you around, play you music and sell you trinkets -- well out of the government mainstream.
Cuba wasn't a democrat paradise before the Castros and it certainly isn't now. It was an effective Plutocracy. It was propped up by US commercial and government interests, along with a fair mount of US mob control. Many of those in control ended leaving for Miami.
I just can't see how another 50 years of failed sanctions is likely to do much more than it has already done.
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